On a side note, here in Italy the veil has never been much of a problem. Face-concealing clothes have been banned since 1975 as a result of the rampant terrorism of that period.
There were some cases of nutjob mayors in the North who issued specific bans on "islamic veils", but those were immediately repealed by the Constitutional Court as discriminatory and generally criticized by the rest of society as useless and redundant as well.

(July 4, 2014 at 8:24 am)ManMachine Wrote:

(July 4, 2014 at 6:44 am)pocaracas Wrote: I know it's from the wiki, but it's a nice piece of history of the hijab, which just shows that it's always been a way of diminishing women.

So, while christians have worn the veil and managed to give it up (except for the sisters in convents and stuff like that).... jews and muslims are still enamored with it... kind of says a lot about the societal advance of these 3 great communities, doesn't it?

There are more covert methods used to subjugate people and in particular women. I'm going to guess that the use of veils as a measure of societal advance is probably not a reliable one.

MM

Islam is love and peace as long as you're not a woman, homosexual or have different beliefs.

(July 4, 2014 at 8:34 am)Blackout Wrote:

(July 4, 2014 at 8:24 am)ManMachine Wrote: There are more covert methods used to subjugate people and in particular women. I'm going to guess that the use of veils as a measure of societal advance is probably not a reliable one.

MM

Islam is love and peace as long as you're not a woman, homosexual or have different beliefs.

Any atheist (and variants thereof) should be well informed, especially as we often cite scientific evidence, scientific theory and the need for accurate empirical evidence as the basis for our reasoning that leads to our assertions.

I see you decided to dispense with all that and make wild unfounded claims.

Hypocrisy, thy name is you.

MM

(July 4, 2014 at 8:50 am)ManMachine Wrote:

(July 4, 2014 at 8:34 am)Blackout Wrote: Islam is love and peace as long as you're not a woman, homosexual or have different beliefs.

Any atheist (and variants thereof) should be well informed, especially as we often cite scientific evidence, scientific theory and the need for accurate empirical evidence as the basis for our reasoning that leads to our assertions.

I see you decided to dispense with all that and make wild unfounded claims.

Hypocrisy, thy name is you.

MM

First of all being an atheist has nothing to do with scientific knowledge, evidence, and theories, being one just means you lack belief in any deities, as far as I know, there are atheists that believe in astrology (I've met one), reincarnation, spiritual forces not related with the concept of god...

Any well informed person knows what happens in theocratic nations governed by a certain religion. Take the example of Pakistan or Saudi Arabia, do you really think my assertion is unfounded and lacks evidence? I didn't say all muslims were the same. I talked about a stereotype that comes from genuine facts and events that have been happening for years.

Let's take the example of Saudi Arabia or any other middle eastern country with similar political regimes and forms of government (theocracy) - Being homosexual gets you the death penalty, apostasy and having a different religion gets you the same punishment, being a woman gives you fewer rights than men. So then again where did I mistake myself?

(July 4, 2014 at 9:00 am)Blackout Wrote:

(July 4, 2014 at 8:50 am)ManMachine Wrote: Any atheist (and variants thereof) should be well informed, especially as we often cite scientific evidence, scientific theory and the need for accurate empirical evidence as the basis for our reasoning that leads to our assertions.

I see you decided to dispense with all that and make wild unfounded claims.

Hypocrisy, thy name is you.

MM

First of all being an atheist has nothing to do with scientific knowledge, evidence, and theories, being one just means you lack belief in any deities, as far as I know, there are atheists that believe in astrology (I've met one), reincarnation, spiritual forces not related with the concept of god...

Any well informed person knows what happens in theocratic nations governed by a certain religion. Take the example of Pakistan or Saudi Arabia, do you really think my assertion is unfounded and lacks evidence? I didn't say all muslims were the same. I talked about a stereotype that comes from genuine facts and events that have been happening for years.

Let's take the example of Saudi Arabia or any other middle eastern country with similar political regimes and forms of government (theocracy) - Being homosexual gets you the death penalty, apostasy and having a different religion gets you the same punishment, being a woman gives you fewer rights than men. So then again where did I mistake myself?

Although I don't see a lot in their holy works that discourages the oppression you mention, and some of it even seems to flat out condone or promote it, keep in mind that it's similar to any other faith. The majority, at least in modern societies, would probably not wish for homosexuals and apostates to be punished by the state or other individuals. It's like Christianity, many would say that's between a person and God. Of course, there are reasons to criticize Islam but you should be careful not to lump them all into some group as hateful and barbaric. I'd say those countries and the situations created under their laws, which we all find abhorrent, have more to do with culture than strictly "Islam," which again means different things to different people.

(July 4, 2014 at 9:47 am)Pickup_shonuff Wrote:

(July 4, 2014 at 9:00 am)Blackout Wrote: First of all being an atheist has nothing to do with scientific knowledge, evidence, and theories, being one just means you lack belief in any deities, as far as I know, there are atheists that believe in astrology (I've met one), reincarnation, spiritual forces not related with the concept of god...

Any well informed person knows what happens in theocratic nations governed by a certain religion. Take the example of Pakistan or Saudi Arabia, do you really think my assertion is unfounded and lacks evidence? I didn't say all muslims were the same. I talked about a stereotype that comes from genuine facts and events that have been happening for years.

Let's take the example of Saudi Arabia or any other middle eastern country with similar political regimes and forms of government (theocracy) - Being homosexual gets you the death penalty, apostasy and having a different religion gets you the same punishment, being a woman gives you fewer rights than men. So then again where did I mistake myself?

Although I don't see a lot in their holy works that discourages the oppression you mention, and some that even seems to condone or promote it, keep in mind that it's similar to any other faith. The majority, at least in modern societies, would probably not wish for homosexuals and apostates to be punished by the state or other individuals. It's like Christianity, many would say that's between a person and God. Of course, there are reasons to criticize Islam but you should be careful not to lump them all into some group as hateful and barbaric.

I wasn't lumping them all into one group, I've met muslims that I liked and appreciated as people, they were nice and respectful. I'm criticizing islam used trough a theocracy.

I don't doubt a handful of Christians would like living in a theocracy again.

The difference is the Christian churches have gotten pretty moderate and Christians, at least in europe are not a problem, while in the middle east it is not like this.