Quote:

Quote:is a part of me is more or less claiming there's this really attractively sexy woman in my bed right now - I'm not denying her presence, she just isn't fucking there Watson! Much to my dismay and frustration.

No, it isn't like that at all. The analogy doesn't work because I can't predict what you would subjectively do if there was a sexy woman in your bed right now- though I can guess- but I can predict what you would subjectively do, or what anyone would subjectively do in certain scenarios if they denied God.

It doesn't matter what he would DO if there were a sexy woman in his bed (ok it would matter to the two of them, but you know what I mean). What matters is that there was no actual sexy woman in his bed at the time he wrote it. Saying there is won't change it if there isn't. And if he pretends that she's there in his mind, sure he'll have fun with a bit of self-entertainment and feel good, but she isn't really there! To pretend otherwise is silly and delusional.

Quote:Like-wise, what I am stating here is that God is a part of all of life; you instincttually believe in your own life upon birth, you instinctually believe in your parents love upon birth; you do not need to be told to believe in these things. Since God is an integral and ingrained part of life, from my POV at least, you are born with the belief in God right off the bat.

If that were true, there would be no atheists, no believers in non-deity religions (like buddhists and ancestor worshippers), etc. No need for bibles or churches since everything would be instinctual. I have never believed in gods. When the concept was first presented to me, at a very early age (it's one of my earliest memories), I laughed and immediately wanted to hear the details of this fun fictional cat-in-the-hat-like tale, so I asked who created God, etc. They couldn't answer these things that showed the story made no sense. My amusement turned to confusion when it seemed they were treating this tale as real, and then even a bit of anger when they expected me to treat it as real also, which is not something I've ever been likely to do since I prefer not to lie unless there is a good enough reason to.

18 pages and already we've gotten to the part where someone's jacking it.


Nice.

This thread's been about jacking off since the start, man.

Masturbation = God exists.

Evidence Part III.

(May 12, 2010 at 1:59 pm)Scented Nectar Wrote: It doesn't matter what he would DO if there were a sexy woman in his bed (ok it would matter to the two of them, but you know what I mean). What matters is that there was no actual sexy woman in his bed at the time he wrote it. Saying there is won't change it if there isn't. And if he pretends that she's there in his mind, sure he'll have fun with a bit of self-entertainment and feel good, but she isn't really there! To pretend otherwise is silly and delusional.

Einsetin's theory of relativity predicted black holes before we discovered black holes. Lo and behold, we have discovered that black holes do, in fact, exist. By using his theory, Einstein was able to predict that something, in this case black holes, was possible or would happen without knowing if it really was thee or not.

Similarly, I can predict the way someone will act or not act if they deny God.

Quote:If that were true, there would be no atheists, no believers in non-deity religions (like buddhists and ancestor worshippers), etc. No need for bibles or churches since everything would be instinctual. I have never believed in gods.

This is where the concept of 'free will' comes in. You have a choice whether to believe or not. But you are born with the clearest image possible of the world around you, and so the choice is damn enar instinctual.

Quote:When the concept was first presented to me, at a very early age (it's one of my earliest memories), I laughed and immediately wanted to hear the details of this fun fictional cat-in-the-hat-like tale, so I asked who created God, etc. They couldn't answer these things that showed the story made no sense. My amusement turned to confusion when it seemed they were treating this tale as real, and then even a bit of anger when they expected me to treat it as real also, which is not something I've ever been likely to do since I prefer not to lie unless there is a good enough reason to.

I understand this. When you were young you chose not to believe, as somewhere down the line you were exposed to things that you chose to put more stock in than faith, belief, and God.

(May 12, 2010 at 12:10 pm)Watson Wrote: You've been honest with me based on your beliefs, and I've been honest with you based on mine. It just so happens that my beliefs contradict yours on this matter.

Oh for the love of the IPU Watson, my atheism is a lack of belief! Not believing in god(s) is not a belief! And no, I couldn't care what beliefs you profess, you contradicted yourself by stating you were an atheist yet failed to understand that atheism makes no positive claims about reality. When challenged about this you admitted, for the second time in this thread, you were never an atheist to begin with, that's why you were called out on being dishonest in the first instance.

Watson Wrote:It's not a God concept; it's just God.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conceptions_of_God

Watson Wrote:No, it isn't like that at all. The analogy doesn't work because I can't predict what you would subjectively do if there was a sexy woman in your bed right now- though I can guess- but I can predict what you would subjectively do, or what anyone would subjectively do in certain scenarios if they denied God.

...what? This was meant to demonstrate your absurd "oneness with the cosmos" analogy because it simply doesn't work, in that it's not evidence for god. Analogies and anecdotes are not evidence.

Watson Wrote:You are clearly not getting it. My understanding and knowledge of God as it is right now is that God is a part of everything and everyone. Therefore, looking back on my Atheism, I can acknowledge that I was wrong in labeling myself an Atheist, because in my book, it is impossible to be an Atheist. I did not believe in God at the time. My belief is completely irrelevant, however, to His existence and effect on me.

This isn't a Spanish inquisition! Were you an atheist or not? Yes or no? Actually, screw this nonsense. It's not like I haven't given you plenty of opportunities to come clean and just *tell me* what your position was, and now is.

(May 12, 2010 at 2:37 pm)Watson Wrote: This is where the concept of 'free will' comes in. You have a choice whether to believe or not. But you are born with the clearest image possible of the world around you, and so the choice is damn enar instinctual.

What the hell does that mean?

You can't choose to believe anything. You either do or you don't. It's not a conscious choice.

(May 12, 2010 at 2:37 pm)Watson Wrote: I understand this. When you were young you chose not to believe, as somewhere down the line you were exposed to things that you chose to put more stock in than faith, belief, and God.

It wasn't a choice. If I told you to believe that green monsters are in your nose without any sort of evidence for it, could you do that? What if i told you it required faith?

You want the truth, I have told you the truth; I was never an Atheist to begin with. My belief is also that no one ever was or has been an Atheist to begin with. They, just like I once did, simply think they are Atheists.

(May 12, 2010 at 2:48 pm)Welsh cake Wrote: ...what? This was meant to demonstrate your absurd "oneness with the cosmos" analogy because it simply doesn't work, in that it's not evidence for god. Analogies and anecdotes are not evidence.

My conception of God allows me to predict certain things; my theory for how God works allows me to predict certain things; similarly, Einstein's theory of relativity allowed him to predict certain things, such as black holes.

(May 12, 2010 at 2:37 pm)Watson Wrote: Einsetin's theory of relativity predicted black holes before we discovered black holes. Lo and behold, we have discovered that black holes do, in fact, exist. By using his theory, Einstein was able to predict that something, in this case black holes, was possible or would happen without knowing if it really was thee or not.

Einstein had lots of varifiable measurements and math to indicate the probability of his theory, in fact those things are what made him think of the possibility. You have zero measurements or any other indicators whatsoever to even suggest the possibility of deities.

Quote:Similarly, I can predict the way someone will act or not act if they deny God.

How they react to the societal expectation to believe in gods doesn't matter as far as whether the gods are real or not.

Quote:This is where the concept of 'free will' comes in. You have a choice whether to believe or not. But you are born with the clearest image possible of the world around you, and so the choice is damn enar instinctual.

The instinct when presented with the world around you is to believe that the world is real. But with godbeliefs, instinct only comes into play regarding the instinct to trust what your own family/species is teaching you. If they are teaching you that magic gods exist, then your instinct would be to give that more credibility than if you thought it up yourself.

Quote:I understand this. When you were young you chose not to believe, as somewhere down the line you were exposed to things that you chose to put more stock in than faith, belief, and God.

It wasn't a choice. The default was a state of not having any thoughts whatsoever about invisible universe creators. When the idea was presented to me, and obviously without any proof or even indicators, well, of course the default then is to conclude it isn't real but be open to any evidence showing otherwise. Regarding faith, why would I want to put any stock in it at all, much less more than I give real things? Faith is deciding to believe in things there is no evidence for. It's choosing to predetermine the facts before you know what they really are, and when you do find out what they really are, faith will make you refuse to accept the newer, more accurate information. Faith is wilfull stupidity.

(May 12, 2010 at 3:03 pm)Scented Nectar Wrote: Einstein had lots of varifiable measurements and math to indicate the probability of his theory, in fact those things are what made him think of the possibility.

Just as I have many subjective measurements and observations which indicate the probability of my theory.

Quote:You have zero measurements or any other indicators whatsoever to even suggest the possibility of deities.

Wrong.

Quote:How they react to the societal expectation to believe in gods doesn't matter as far as whether the gods are real or not.

...What?

Quote:The instinct when presented with the world around you is to believe that the world is real.

And by my concept, God is all of the world around you. Thus, that instinctual belief in the world is an instinctual belief in God; without all the clutter of 'what will my parents think?' and 'what will society say?' and 'how will this affect me?' that occurs later in life.

Quote:It wasn't a choice.

It was.

Quote:The default was a state of not having any thoughts whatsoever about invisible universe creators.

Exactly. The default was living as if the world truly did exist and you needed no external proof to verify that.

Quote:When the idea was presented to me, and obviously without any proof or even indicators, well, of course the default then is to conclude it isn't real but be open to any evidence showing otherwise.

I don't know you. I don't know what your beliefs were at the time. I can't make an accurate prediction because I don't have enough data at this time.

Quote:Regarding faith, why would I want to put any stock in it at all, much less more than I give real things?

Why would you put any stock in anything if you didn't have faith in it? Do you simply not trust anyone or anything around you? Was your trust violated at some early age?

Quote:Faith is deciding to believe in things there is no evidence for.

No. Faith is deciding to believe in things there is subjective, personal evidence for. Experience, in other words.

Quote:It's choosing to predetermine the facts before you know what they really are, and when you do find out what they really are, faith will make you refuse to accept the newer, more accurate information.

This is not faith. Faith would simply have you examine the newer information more closely, ad decide for yourself whether or not your earlier concepts were right.

Quote:Faith is wilfull stupidity.

Funny. Often when we talk and discuss things with others, we are talking more about ourselves than we are that other person.