(July 5, 2014 at 12:03 am)Purplundy Wrote: Before Jesus, death was the end as much as it might be for some of you. The doctrine of any kind of permanency of the human being was part of Jesus' reform of Judaism.

Rubbish, read your Bible.

Enoch and Elijah both ascended into Heaven without even dying. Jesus was not required. Your god of money demonstrates he's more than capable of screwing death and sin, bridging the infinite gap between mortal and immortal, but he doesn't, because his character is an almighty ass.

(July 5, 2014 at 1:33 am)Purplundy Wrote:

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(July 5, 2014 at 1:05 am)Bibliofagus Wrote: Anyways: Your jesus speaks out about many people needing to change their game, but never once the slave owners get mentioned.

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He didn't speak out against rapists, either. Or terrorists. Or child molesters.
"Love your neighbor as yourself" was the sum of Jesus' teaching. It probably saved him the energy of having to recite the equivalent of the U.S. Constitution whenever he ran into somebody. If treating people like property is in compliance with Jesus' message, then yes, Jesus Christ condoned the slave trade.
But giving that message put Jesus at risk of being killed. He apparently decided that giving the Jewish people his "law of love" was more important to him than his life. Hence, he made what we might call a 'sacrifice'.

Jesus didn't consider everyone his neighbor. He specifically told his disciples to stay away from Samaritans and Gentiles.

(July 5, 2014 at 1:33 am)Purplundy Wrote:

(July 5, 2014 at 1:05 am)Bibliofagus Wrote: Anyways: Your jesus speaks out about many people needing to change their game, but never once the slave owners get mentioned.

He didn't speak out against rapists, either. Or terrorists. Or child molesters.

I know! The motherfucker apparently thought speaking out against Samaritans and Gentiles was more much important.

(July 5, 2014 at 1:33 am)Purplundy Wrote: "Love your neighbor as yourself" was the sum of Jesus' teaching. It probably saved him the energy of having to recite the equivalent of the U.S. Constitution whenever he ran into somebody.

Yeah. Because saying 'Hey guys, you know slavery? The thing that is okay according to the law you think my heavenly father sent me, is NOT okay!!'

Is the same as reciting the US constitution.

Furthermore: Your jesus said the exact opposite. Not one tittel or jota blabla.

(July 5, 2014 at 1:33 am)Purplundy Wrote: If treating people like property is in compliance with Jesus' message, then yes, Jesus Christ condoned the slave trade.

It is. And I think it's disgusting.

(July 5, 2014 at 1:33 am)Purplundy Wrote: But giving that message put Jesus at risk of being killed.

So what? Wasn't that the fucking point of him coming to earth?

(July 5, 2014 at 1:33 am)Purplundy Wrote: He apparently decided that giving the Jewish people his "law of love" was more important to him than his life. Hence, he made what we might call a 'sacrifice'.

Yeah. He went from carpenter to ruler of the universe in less than 3 days.

(July 5, 2014 at 2:45 am)Welsh cake Wrote: Enoch and Elijah both ascended into Heaven without even dying.

If they weren't dead, why would they be in heaven?
Here's a challenge for you.
Prove that it is written in the Bible that anyone went to heaven, ever, in the Old Testament.

Quote:Your god of money

I have a god of money? Cool. Do I get quarters when I offer him bread crumbs?

Quote:demonstrates he's more than capable of screwing death and sin, bridging the infinite gap between mortal and immortal, but he doesn't

According to you, he demonstrated it, but he didn't do it. Either you don't know what a demonstration is, or God has power over the English language.

Quote:because his character is an almighty ass.

An alliteration? Witty. Now stop screaming at the keyboard and use your words.

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(July 5, 2014 at 3:41 am)Wyrd of Gawd Wrote: Jesus didn't consider everyone his neighbor. He specifically told his disciples to stay away from Samaritans and Gentiles.

This argument would go by SO much quicker if you just supported your claims with evidence.
Not only did Jesus tell the parable of the Good Samaritan, he preached to a Samaritan and healed Gentiles on several occasions.

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(July 5, 2014 at 4:46 am)Bibliofagus Wrote: The motherfucker apparently thought speaking out against Samaritans and Gentiles was more much important.

proof

Quote:Yeah. Because saying 'Hey guys, you know slavery? The thing that is okay according to the law you think my heavenly father sent me, is NOT okay!!'

"…also, don't rape women, molest children, fly planes into towers, use nukes, kill people with swords, kill people with spears, strangle Jews, strangle Samaritans…"

Quote:Furthermore: Your jesus said the exact opposite. Not one tittel or jota blabla.

"28 One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, “Of all the commandments, which is the most important?”
29 “The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. 30 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ 31 The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no commandment greater than these.”
I call it, 'proof'. I even gave it context. Your turn.

(July 5, 2014 at 1:33 am)Purplundy Wrote: If treating people like property is in compliance with Jesus' message, then yes, Jesus Christ condoned the slave trade.

Quote:It is. And I think it's disgusting.

My next request from you is 'a logical argument'. If Jesus said that we should treat other people like we would treat ourselves (verified fact), all I need is for you to explain how someone following this rule would buy and sell human beings.
Once you get back, we can talk about Jesus' "sacrifice".

(July 5, 2014 at 5:54 am)Purplundy Wrote: My next request from you is 'a logical argument'. If Jesus said that we should treat other people like we would treat ourselves (verified fact), all I need is for you to explain how someone following this rule would buy and sell human beings.
Once you get back, we can talk about Jesus' "sacrifice".

Jesus didn't say anything to us living right now. Nor was what he said intended for who weren't there to hear and accept his teachings.

So he could've been ok with slavery in general, but among his followers, it would've been an obstacle in their path to acceptance in the kingdom of God that was supposed to come in his time.

(July 5, 2014 at 5:54 am)Purplundy Wrote:

(July 5, 2014 at 2:45 am)Welsh cake Wrote: Enoch and Elijah both ascended into Heaven without even dying.

If they weren't dead, why would they be in heaven?
Here's a challenge for you.
Prove that it is written in the Bible that anyone went to heaven, ever, in the Old Testament.

Quote:Your god of money

I have a god of money? Cool. Do I get quarters when I offer him bread crumbs?

Quote:demonstrates he's more than capable of screwing death and sin, bridging the infinite gap between mortal and immortal, but he doesn't

According to you, he demonstrated it, but he didn't do it. Either you don't know what a demonstration is, or God has power over the English language.

Quote:because his character is an almighty ass.

An alliteration? Witty. Now stop screaming at the keyboard and use your words.

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(July 5, 2014 at 3:41 am)Wyrd of Gawd Wrote: Jesus didn't consider everyone his neighbor. He specifically told his disciples to stay away from Samaritans and Gentiles.

This argument would go by SO much quicker if you just supported your claims with evidence.
Not only did Jesus tell the parable of the Good Samaritan, he preached to a Samaritan and healed Gentiles on several occasions.

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(July 5, 2014 at 4:46 am)Bibliofagus Wrote: The motherfucker apparently thought speaking out against Samaritans and Gentiles was more much important.

proof

Quote:Yeah. Because saying 'Hey guys, you know slavery? The thing that is okay according to the law you think my heavenly father sent me, is NOT okay!!'

"…also, don't rape women, molest children, fly planes into towers, use nukes, kill people with swords, kill people with spears, strangle Jews, strangle Samaritans…"

Quote:Furthermore: Your jesus said the exact opposite. Not one tittel or jota blabla.

"28 One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, “Of all the commandments, which is the most important?”
29 “The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. 30 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ 31 The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no commandment greater than these.”
I call it, 'proof'. I even gave it context. Your turn.

(July 5, 2014 at 1:33 am)Purplundy Wrote: If treating people like property is in compliance with Jesus' message, then yes, Jesus Christ condoned the slave trade.

Quote:It is. And I think it's disgusting.

My next request from you is 'a logical argument'. If Jesus said that we should treat other people like we would treat ourselves (verified fact), all I need is for you to explain how someone following this rule would buy and sell human beings.
Once you get back, we can talk about Jesus' "sacrifice".

Sorry people...I think we need to take a step back and recognize that you are talking about a BOOK. The main chasm here isn't in the minutiae of the words its in the way one feels about the entire content. If one TRULY (and I mean straight-up individual intellectual honesty here) believes that this book is the "the way it happened" then the discussion can begin. If one person thinks that this book is just a bunch of bullshit then its an argument ad infinitum. I agree that the bible is full of egregious crap but it has been interpreted and reinterpreted so many times that it's almost impossible to pull out the nucleus of meaning. Even if meaning could be extracted from two thousand year-old verbage (which most definitely was bantered around as an oral tradition for decades prior to recording) then THAT would ALSO be up for interpretation. What is YOUR core belief? Forget the comic book.

(July 5, 2014 at 5:54 am)Purplundy Wrote: If they weren't dead, why would they be in heaven?
Here's a challenge for you.
Prove that it is written in the Bible that anyone went to heaven, ever, in the Old Testament.

Hey Purplundy!
Google. Is. Your. Friend.

But I digress, in your world you often tell the teacher to do your homework for you, don't you?

Quote:I have a god of money? Cool. Do I get quarters when I offer him bread crumbs?

No stupid, YOU give up your money and you get the shitty little bits of Sacramental bread in return. NOT the other way around.

Quote:According to you, he demonstrated it,

According to the Bible mate. I claim nothing.

Quote:An alliteration? Witty. Now stop screaming at the keyboard and use your words.

Do you even know what an alliteration is?

I sincerely doubt it.

(July 5, 2014 at 5:54 am)Purplundy Wrote: If they weren't dead, why would they be in heaven?
Here's a challenge for you.
Prove that it is written in the Bible that anyone went to heaven, ever, in the Old Testament.

Elijah was clearly stated to have gone to heaven, although you will likely try to squirm out of this by stating that heaven in this instance just means sky. There's also a strong case that Enoch went to heaven even though the word heaven isn't specifically used.

(July 5, 2014 at 7:50 am)naturestubbs1 Wrote: Sorry people...I think we need to take a step back and recognize that you are talking about a BOOK. The main chasm here isn't in the minutiae of the words its in the way one feels about the entire content. If one TRULY (and I mean straight-up individual intellectual honesty here) believes that this book is the "the way it happened" then the discussion can begin. If one person thinks that this book is just a bunch of bullshit then its an argument ad infinitum. I agree that the bible is full of egregious crap but it has been interpreted and reinterpreted so many times that it's almost impossible to pull out the nucleus of meaning. Even if meaning could be extracted from two thousand year-old verbage (which most definitely was bantered around as an oral tradition for decades prior to recording) then THAT would ALSO be up for interpretation. What is YOUR core belief? Forget the comic book.

You'll have to excuse me but I have the annoying habit of putting in my two cents worth even when a question is specifically addressed to a different member.

I share your attitude toward the bible when a fundamentalist starts quoting from it like a lawyer to 'prove' a point. However if someone wants to discuss it intelligently as a piece of literature I have no complaint. I get left behind in such discussions since I've never read much of it, but I won't tell others where they can or cannot find their wisdom since that tends to be the sort of thing one reads into a text, not out from it.

Purplundy has already explained that he believes a man named Jesus lived and that his example and words are very important to him. I think he believes the bible is an important source of information in that pursuit. Given that he believes the first the second seems reasonable enough to me .. so long as he doesn't treat it as divinely inspired marching orders the way fundamentalists do. He hasn't done that. In fact, I find him to take what the bible says with a generous dose of salt. I can respect that.

If you approach a story about Jesus the way you would a parable or a zen koan, rather than the way a lawyer/apologist would, then I'm going to be more interested in what you have to say.

Purplundy Wrote:"28 One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, “Of all the commandments, which is the most important?”
29 “The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. 30 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ 31 The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no commandment greater than these.”

Applying that approach to the portion of the quote I bolded, I'd have to say that the God you are to love so strongly is within you as something more essentially yourself even than what you take yourself to be. He is urging people to mature/realize/assimilate that potentiality in themselves. It is like when he says elsewhere that he and 'his father' -a reference again to God- are one. At least, that is the most generous interpretation I could give it.

This raises another question for you, Purple&Burgundy. Does your theology require you to believe that 'God' -not Jesus- is an entity in its own right, apart from people? If one believed that Jesus' God was only within each person, would that get one evicted from the theist tent?

(July 5, 2014 at 7:54 am)Welsh cake Wrote: Google. Is. Your. Friend.

Did you seriously just tell me to find proof for your own claim?
By the way, I have telekinesis. It's true. Just Google it.

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(July 5, 2014 at 8:41 am)Cato Wrote: Elijah was clearly stated to have gone to heaven, although you will likely try to squirm out of this by stating that heaven in this instance just means sky. There's also a strong case that Enoch went to heaven even though the word heaven isn't specifically used.

And you will likely try to squirm out of this one by stating an unsupported fact.
You know that something's wrong when the Christian is the one asking for evidence.

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(July 5, 2014 at 7:50 am)naturestubbs1 Wrote: Sorry people...I think we need to take a step back and recognize that you are talking about a BOOK.

Point taken. But at this point, we're not talking about belief. We're simply arguing over what words were written in a book, and I'm sorry if it's dragging on for much longer than is comfortable.
Maybe when people start bringing evidence to the table, we can talk about something more substantive.

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(July 5, 2014 at 9:16 am)whateverist Wrote: This raises another question for you, Purple&Burgundy. Does your theology require you to believe that 'God' -not Jesus- is an entity in its own right, apart from people? If one believed that Jesus' God was only within each person, would that get one evicted from the theist tent?

Love the portmanteau.
I think we can agree that I would be a total ass to claim that some people aren't doing Christianity right because they don't agree with me on every point. I leave that task to the Spanish Inquisition.
I don't think that God is incapable of existing outside human beings as much as our morals are
The existence of a God is pointless outside human beings as much as morals are. Unlike Bill O'Reilly, I don't think God preoccupies himself with making the tides go in and out. Some would phrase it as "God loves us more than everything else." I'd say that the expression of God's loving nature (bear with me here, I'm sorry if this sounds like a Catechism) is something that only human beings are capable of channeling. Put very simply, God really wants to share himself with us.