(May 16, 2010 at 12:30 am)Shell B Wrote:

(May 16, 2010 at 12:21 am)Godschild Wrote: God did not create sin man brought sin into the world.

Um, according to the story, didn't god create man? Did mankind find sin on another planet and bring it back here or something? I'm not following your logic.

Shell B, Tackattack has made it clear that sin is not having Gods will in your decisions. When God created the universe it was perfect there was no sin. Then Satan (Lucifer) defied God bringing sin into existance. The sin was not a part of the created universe at this point in time because God and the angels lived outside of the created phyisical universe and sin was contained there. When Adam and Eve disobeyed God (not having Gods will in their decision) they allowed the same sin that Lucifer had brought into existance into the created universe. With this ungodly will now part of creation it changed everything. Thus the need for God to become as sin and die a mortals death for our redemption. No wonder God was so upset with man but in His everlasting love He did what was best for mankind.

(May 16, 2010 at 7:49 pm)Godschild Wrote: Shell B, Tackattack has made it clear that sin is not having Gods will in your decisions.

I don't feel like anything was made clear. Hypothetically, if I build a robot and then that robot somehow harms someone or "sins", would it be the robot's fault or mine? Who was behind the crime? It is my feeling that it would be my fault. Just because the robot didn't do exactly what I told it to do, doesn't remove the blame from me.

It's like god saying "Well, that wasn't in the programming." Yet, he supposedly created EVERYTHING. But, when it's not convenient he only created virtually everything. What the fuck is that?

Taking the blame off of god is the same principle as a parent abusing a child and then acting all butthurt when the child acts out.

(May 16, 2010 at 7:49 pm)Godschild Wrote: When God created the universe it was perfect there was no sin. Then Satan (Lucifer) defied God bringing sin into existance. The sin was not a part of the created universe at this point in time because God and the angels lived outside of the created phyisical universe and sin was contained there.

If god created the universe, then he created everything in it. Paul put it best,

(May 16, 2010 at 1:22 pm)Paul the Human Wrote: the very fact that something exists demands that nothingness also exist (for lack of a better word). So, if god created existence, then he simultaneously created non-existence.

(May 16, 2010 at 7:49 pm)Godschild Wrote: When Adam and Eve disobeyed God (not having Gods will in their decision) they allowed the same sin that Lucifer had brought into existance into the created universe. With this ungodly will now part of creation it changed everything. Thus the need for God to become as sin and die a mortals death for our redemption. No wonder God was so upset with man but in His everlasting love He did what was best for mankind.

I don't even want to touch this part because it astounds me that people believe this crap. Did what's best for mankind? He made apples delicious and tempting and told Adam and Eve not to eat them, just because he felt like making an asinine rule. Do you make rules for your children just so you have an excuse to punish them? Fuck that. This story has always pissed me off. god sounds like a mentally abusive prick in this one.

Truly I didn't restate and when I did apparently it didn't stick so it wasn't clarified. She put her post in while I was writing another and I went back to edit and I guess it got dropped. I'll do it here:

(May 16, 2010 at 1:00 pm)Shell B Wrote:

(May 16, 2010 at 3:50 am)tackattack Wrote: @ ShellB - atheism is the absence of evidence for God's existence, darkness is the absence of light, sin is the absence of God's will in your choices... I think that's a pretty easy concept.

No, tack. Christianity is the absence of evidence for god's existence. Atheism is a lack of belief in god(s).

Yes, darkness is the absence of light.

Sin is the absence of god's will in your choices? Okay, well, god created absence, light and, therefore, sin.

It's not that the concept is difficult, it's that it's erroneous.[/hide]

you can't create the lack of something, only the something that fills that lack.

1-darkness is the absence of light
2-atheism is the lack of belief in God due to an absence of appropriate evidence
3-theism is the belief in God due to faith
4-hell is a place or state of mind absent of God for eternity
5-sin is the choice that is absent of God's desire for us
6- evil is the options we have that don't promote us towards God's plan


I hope that 's a little clearer. I think I see your point with the robo analogy. If God created us imperfect, why would he not share the blame of our inequity? Here's my take on this. He gives us every option so that we can lear what is truly good and what is truly evil, to learn his plan. He wants us to evolve and succeed in this endeavor, so he gives us revelations of his will and tools to gauge right vs wrong. It is up to us to define right and wrong sufficiently and grow as a society. I do not see religion as a hinderance to this purpose. I do see a lot of things wrong with religion, especially where it delves outside of the realms of God and into mankind.

(May 16, 2010 at 9:25 pm)tackattack Wrote: He gives us every option so that we can lear what is truly good and what is truly evil, to learn his plan. He wants us to evolve and succeed in this endeavor, so he gives us revelations of his will and tools to gauge right vs wrong.

Now, if this were the case, how long do we have to learn "his plan?" I only ask because I don't think that young children who commit heinous murders were given every option to learn what is truly good and truly evil. This is an obvious fact. How can you learn right from wrong completely by the age of, say, ten? So, knowing that it is a fact that children can not be expected to have learned the complexities of good and 'evil' and that children have committed murder, would a Christian have to safely assume that god abandoned these children before they ever had a chance?

Furthermore, is it the child's fault, if they had never read god's revelations? I mean, if he/she was never presented with them in his/her short lifetime before committing a sin, then did god want to see that child fail?

Now, I understand that god doesn't desire us to sin, in your eyes. However, god is responsible for sin, by the definition I have been shown. Sin is not simply the absence of god's will. It is actions, as defined by the Christian representation of sin. god creates man; god is responsible for man's actions. I still think that even if sin simply was the absence of god's will, god made his will, therefore creating sin. It doesn't matter how you slice it. For example, if I am absent from work, I created that absence by ever being present. If I had never gone, I would never had been absent. I'm sorry if my analogies suck, but someone must understand the concept. Or, am I just beating my head against a wall?

Quote:What the fuck is that?

They worship a god who needs a lot of excuses, Shell.

Shell B, where that child commits an act they are not aware is bad or good is where forgiveness comes in to play with Christianity. "Forgive them, Father...they know not what they do.

(May 16, 2010 at 9:52 pm)Watson Wrote: Shell B, where that child commits an act they are not aware is bad or good is where forgiveness comes in to play with Christianity. "Forgive them, Father...they know not what they do.

Why didn't he just show them before they brutally murdered an innocent child?

Quote:"Forgive them, Father...they know not what they do.

Horseshit. Here we try them as adults.

(May 16, 2010 at 10:00 pm)Shell B Wrote:

(May 16, 2010 at 9:52 pm)Watson Wrote: Shell B, where that child commits an act they are not aware is bad or good is where forgiveness comes in to play with Christianity. "Forgive them, Father...they know not what they do.

Why didn't he just show them before they brutally murdered an innocent child?

Wait, I thought the hypothetical scenario was that a child killed some one before they had had time to learn that doing so was wrong? Is the pypothetical story different, or am I just confused here?

In any case, it could be that in killing that person, the child will have learned that killing is wrong and why. Understanding can come from experience, though it need not to in this case. Perhaps there is some other reason for thsi event. Who is to say?

(May 16, 2010 at 10:13 pm)Watson Wrote: Wait, I thought the hypothetical scenario was that a child killed some one before they had had time to learn that doing so was wrong? Is the pypothetical story different, or am I just confused here?

In any case, it could be that in killing that person, the child will have learned that killing is wrong and why. Understanding can come from experience, though it need not to in this case. Perhaps there is some other reason for thsi event. Who is to say?

It's not a hypothetical scenario. It has happened. If god were so great, he would have bestowed his infinite wisdom upon that child and saved the rest of us the heartache of bearing witness (in a way) to such events.

My question, basically, is why is a person capable of sin before they know right from wrong?

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(May 16, 2010 at 10:04 pm)Minimalist Wrote:

Quote:"Forgive them, Father...they know not what they do.

Horseshit. Here we try them as adults.

And then let them out when they're in their twenties. Looks like the judicial system is as fucked up as god's will.