Quote:The trouble is that they neglect something very basic, very simple, very obvious: each kid is an individual with individual needs and individual disciplinary requirements.
A "one size fits all" recipe will never work.
A book's guidelines will never fit with any particular kid.

This!

And there's the rub.

Luckie, you said

Quote: We aren't talking about the person who occasionally has to refer to a spanking now and then, we are talking about spanking used as corporal punishment. 

That's exactly what I am talking about! What you're talking about is wrong. No doubt, and no argument. If you're using objects or leaving bruises you're harming the child. We're on the same page there I think. But some people on this thread are talking about ALL physical punishment in the same way. That's my point! It's not a black and white issue.

Quote: If you're using objects or leaving bruises you're harming the child.

So, a little child who trusts you implicitly, loves you totally, thinks your a superhero, isn't harmed when you slap him? Come on. Not all damage is physical.

Boru

So, little 4 year old jimmy is standing on a chair and dancing, when you find him.
You bring him down from there and tell him not to do it again, because he may fall and hurt himself badly.

5 minutes later, you find him doing the exact same thing.
You bring him down again and now you raise your voice a bit and let him know that he cannot stand on the chair. You take away the music and the toy he has in his hand.

5 minutes later, he's back there.

So, as a parent, would you rather keep defying odds and keep finding him defying gravity or would you prefer to instill in him the fear of you finding he's dancing in a tall place which he knows (or has been told and has minimally understood) that's potentially bad for him?
Or... please share your ideas on dealing with a kid like this, if you find this is a false dichotomy (which it most likely is!)

Consider the not so distant time when he'll figure out that he can stack chairs or stools and climb them so he can be even higher...

The same for properly packing or storing toys left on the floor where people, including him, can trip, slip and fall.... and so many other situations where, at a young age, hypothetical consequences are less considered than the overseer threat and very possible action...

(July 16, 2014 at 5:04 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote:

Quote: If you're using objects or leaving bruises you're harming the child.

So, a little child who trusts you implicitly, loves you totally, thinks your a superhero, isn't harmed when you slap him? Come on. Not all damage is physical.

Boru

I wasn't. Nor were my siblings. And I think my parents did a better job raising us with smacking, than I'm doing raising my kids without.

Ugh. Can't unsee that page...
If you didn't see it an FB group allegedly about "disciplining children", let's say there was rather too much... adult interest to be healthy.

(July 16, 2014 at 7:27 am)Mr Greene Wrote: Ugh. Can't unsee that page...
If you didn't see it an FB group allegedly about "disciplining children", let's say there was rather too much... adult interest to be healthy.

Sounds like a fetish to me. I once saw a similar page (not on FB) in portuguese language (I'm portuguese but the page was from brazil) and some parents said they spank their kids with a paddle/belt buckle daily even if they don't mess up, just to remind them that there will always be a punishment if they misbehave. It's sickening

(July 16, 2014 at 8:04 am)Blackout Wrote:

(July 16, 2014 at 7:27 am)Mr Greene Wrote: Ugh. Can't unsee that page...
If you didn't see it an FB group allegedly about "disciplining children", let's say there was rather too much... adult interest to be healthy.

Sounds like a fetish to me. I once saw a similar page (not on FB) in portuguese language (I'm portuguese but the page was from brazil) and some parents said they spank their kids with a paddle/belt buckle daily even if they don't mess up, just to remind them that there will always be a punishment if they misbehave. It's sickening

Indeed, I think several of the posters, particularly those requesting details of others children, should be on a register...

Anyone leaving a four year old unattended for five minutes is asking for trouble. Four year old children are naturally rambunctious, adventurous, and curious.

As for the chair, there are other ways to influence behavior besides spanking. Kids love to climb for several reasons; the biggest reason is that it is simply fun. Other reasons have to do with the fact that the world around them fits people that are much taller. I would do anything in my power to get higher if everything was out of reach and all I saw around me were people's asses. There's a reason why children's parks are strewn with equipment designed to be scaled. It's not difficult to teach young children that climbing is acceptable outdoor behavior and is not allowed inside.

If the focus of the fun was dancing, then remove the chair and get down on your knees and dance with them. Take care to separate the unacceptable part of the situation from the acceptable. Disney has a Mickey Mouse show that ends with what's called 'The Hot Dog Dance'. I might be oblivious to the show, but when I hear "Grandpa, hot dog dance!!!", it's my cue to drop what I'm doing and dance along.

I secretly hate that song so much.

(July 16, 2014 at 8:15 am)Cato Wrote: Anyone leaving a four year old unattended for five minutes is asking for trouble. Four year old children are naturally rambunctious, adventurous, and curious.

Life does send a few curved balls...
It is common for parents to be in one division of the house and the kids, even younger than 4, to be in another.
Say, parents in the kitchen, kid in the living room, watching tv... and jumping on the furniture, or climbing it, or whatever... dangerous stuff.
You have to teach them to be careful, but if you see that they fail to understand the gravity of their situation, it's better to circumvent the actual case and "force" the kid to behave properly, until such time as he will understand the reasoning for it.
I'm not saying spank and leave his flesh raw... I'm saying cause some discomfort, pain, or something that will actually make him not want to repeat that behavior.

My 5 year old can have a shower by himself and I never had to be aggressive to keep him from behaving properly in the tub, he just does... but sometimes he can take a long time in there, that's when we intervene, because he's wasting water and heating and must be made aware of it... of course, on a few instances it's far from effective to just tell him that he's wasting water, unless I threaten to keep him from playing computer if he takes much longer to leave the tub...

(July 16, 2014 at 8:15 am)Cato Wrote: As for the chair, there are other ways to influence behavior besides spanking.

Sure there are... many, many... but there are some kids which seem to only respond to physical pain.

I'm not saying it should be the first and foremost option... it should be the last... but the parent's experience with that particular child may yield that information that a slap is the only way to get a response and, so, it becomes the first option.

(July 16, 2014 at 8:15 am)Cato Wrote: Kids love to climb for several reasons; the biggest reason is that it is simply fun. Other reasons have to do with the fact that the world around them fits people that are much taller. I would do anything in my power to get higher if everything was out of reach and all I saw around me were people's asses. There's a reason why children's parks are strewn with equipment designed to be scaled. It's not difficult to teach young children that climbing is acceptable outdoor behavior and is not allowed inside.

On climbing, I'm a bit more relaxed, as long as I know they're climbing something sturdy.
A chair, or a stack of chairs is far from sturdy, it's rickety and unstable.
It's important to make them see what they can climb and what they can't... like once upon a time it was important to make them see what they could eat and what they couldn't.
The trouble starts when they fail to learn what they shouldn't do, because it's too risky. And fail again, and fail again, and fail, and fail...
Parents can go crazy with kids like that, specially if they know other parents who never have to go through that trouble! Comparisons become inevitable and it's no fun to end up with the short straw!

(July 16, 2014 at 8:15 am)Cato Wrote: If the focus of the fun was dancing, then remove the chair and get down on your knees and dance with them. Take care to separate the unacceptable part of the situation from the acceptable. Disney has a Mickey Mouse show that ends with what's called 'The Hot Dog Dance'. I might be oblivious to the show, but when I hear "Grandpa, hot dog dance!!!", it's my cue to drop what I'm doing and dance along.

I don't know what the focus was... it was an example of repeated risky behavior which, if left unchecked, could very well lead to a trip to the hospital, at least.

Also, you don't want to always be there. You want to teach them some independence. Being in the next room, at first... then leaving them home alone for a few minutes, while you go shopping for something small... then, as they become teenagers, leaving them home alone for days... and knowing they'll behave.
I think this is the ultimate goal: provide them with the required rules to be left alone in the world and survive.
Some learn them quickly and painlessly... others require a few nudges here and there.
Some parents fail to realize that children are future adults and turn them into some form of project and never leave childhood... becoming the present-day generation of 20 to 30-somethings which still think the world owes them everything, while all they do is pout.