(July 15, 2014 at 4:28 pm)Napoléon Wrote: It's not simplistic. It's fact. Spanking is harmful to fucking children. The people who deny this are being as ignorant in ignoring the evidence as people are when they deny evidence for evolution.

Findings Give Some Support To Advocates of Spanking

Quote:The studies cited by opponents of corporal punishment, Dr. Baumrind contended, often do not adequately distinguish the effects of spanking, as practiced by nonabusive parents, from the impact of severe physical punishment and abuse. Nor do they consider other factors that might account for problems later in life, like whether parents are rejecting or whether defiant or aggressive children might be more likely to be spanked in the first place.

Dr. Baumrind described findings from her own research, an analysis of data from a long-term study of more than 100 families, indicating that mild to moderate spanking had no detrimental effects when such confounding influences were separated out. When the parents who delivered severe punishment -- for example, frequently spanking with a paddle or striking a child in the face -- were removed from the analysis, Dr. Baumrind and her colleague, Dr. Elizabeth Owens, found that few harmful effects linked with spanking were left. And the few that remained could be explained by other aspects of the parent-child relationship.

''When parents are loving and firm and communicate well with the child,'' Dr. Baumrind said, ''the children are exceptionally competent and well adjusted, whether or not their parents spanked them as preschoolers.''

The study drew upon data from the Family Socialization and Developmental Competence Project, which followed families in the Berkeley, Calif., area over 12 years, from the time their children were preschoolers until they were adolescents.

Dr. Baumrind argued that, without compelling evidence that spanking is harmful, parents should be free to rear their children in accordance with their own values and traditions.

(July 16, 2014 at 2:23 am)Jacob(smooth) Wrote: Wow! Another religious type argument. An absolute statement claiming evidence, a request for that evidence followed by "go find it yourself". Are you sure you haven't converted?

Give me a motherfucking break dickhead. The evidence is so easily accessible it shouldn't even need to be presented, like I said several pages ago. You're the one being ignorant here. You're the one being intellectually dishonest and lazy. Go fuck yourself.

Quote:Notwithstanding, I read the Wikipedia article . Some interesting stuff supporting both sides of the debate, but scarcely definitive.

Both sides were represented but if you think the evidence and research was anything but one sided you must have been reading a different fucking article. Read the section on "Research on parental corporal punishment", it starts of with a sympathiser's point of view, but if you read the whole thing it's overwhelmingly damning of corporal punishment. Just the amount of psychological and children's organisations that oppose spanking in any circumstances should be a fucking indicator it is bad. But fuck them right, fuck the scientific research laid out time after time in that article saying it causes psychological issues. All that research must be wrong.

You sit there and say I'm the one using a 'religious' type argument. Can you hear yourself? You're doing exactly what the religious do when pointed towards the evidence for evolution. "La la la can't hear you, not good enough".

Whatever dude, if you can't be arsed to actually address this issue with some integrity, I really can't be arsed arguing with you.

Quote:And again we have the problem that an open slap across the legs to underline a point is considered in the same light as hitting a child with an object or a closed fist. The latter is clearly going to colour any research data. If you considered obesity risk, including all those who can't get off the bed, you couldn't apply those same risks to someone with a bmi of 26.

Your analogy is ridiculous.

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(July 16, 2014 at 10:07 am)alpha male Wrote:

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Findings Give Some Support To Advocates of Spanking

Quote:The studies cited by opponents of corporal punishment, Dr. Baumrind contended, often do not adequately distinguish the effects of spanking, as practiced by nonabusive parents, from the impact of severe physical punishment and abuse. Nor do they consider other factors that might account for problems later in life, like whether parents are rejecting or whether defiant or aggressive children might be more likely to be spanked in the first place.

Dr. Baumrind described findings from her own research, an analysis of data from a long-term study of more than 100 families, indicating that mild to moderate spanking had no detrimental effects when such confounding influences were separated out. When the parents who delivered severe punishment -- for example, frequently spanking with a paddle or striking a child in the face -- were removed from the analysis, Dr. Baumrind and her colleague, Dr. Elizabeth Owens, found that few harmful effects linked with spanking were left. And the few that remained could be explained by other aspects of the parent-child relationship.

''When parents are loving and firm and communicate well with the child,'' Dr. Baumrind said, ''the children are exceptionally competent and well adjusted, whether or not their parents spanked them as preschoolers.''

The study drew upon data from the Family Socialization and Developmental Competence Project, which followed families in the Berkeley, Calif., area over 12 years, from the time their children were preschoolers until they were adolescents.

Dr. Baumrind argued that, without compelling evidence that spanking is harmful, parents should be free to rear their children in accordance with their own values and traditions.

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Interesting. It appears to me her research had more to do with parenting style than spanking itself.

http://www.positive-parenting-ally.com/d...mrind.html

Quote:Many researchers disagree vehemently with Baumrind (and many countries have also banned physical punishment both in school and at home).

They claim that the more a parent uses physical punishment the greater the likelihood of this punishment escalating to abuse.

Some experts also believe that punishing a child using physical aggression will encourage them to become more physically aggressive themselves.

And the bottom line is - does it make sense?

Isn't spanking a child for something such as throwing a toy at a friend, biting, or hitting another child an oxymoron? ... I'm going to hit you to teach you that hitting is wrong? Even as an adult, that makes no sense, so how can we expect our children to understand?

Baumrind doesn't seem to take into account that minor physical punishment often escalates into abuse, and many studies have proven that this is the case.

(July 15, 2014 at 10:00 am)vorlon13 Wrote: I'm aware when I admonish Christian 'slackers' into greater conformity with Scripture that a consequence of that is the possibility that some of them will abuse their children.

While it can be a source of amusement to me that Christians I chide into getting paranoid about wearing a polyester tie with a wool suit, or into looking at a shrimp appetizer prior to their 'front half of the cow' steak as something that will threaten their eventual Salvation, there are clearly some other items in their Bibles that are horrific, and that the power of shaming and 'peer' (even if I am insincere in my blandishments advocating Literalism and Inerrancy) pressure might result in more of the abuses noted earlier in this thread.

It's something I need to reflect upon.

I'll keep afflicting the cafeteria Christians, probably won't directly cite the abusive Bible crap (unless it seems appropriate) and will confine my chiding to the ridiculous aspects, such as the polyester tie with the wool suit example.

I'm not the one beating kids, and embarrassing Christers into doing so is unfortunate, particularly if that is a response to my pointing out milk gravy with beef sausage on a biscuit could get somebody condemned to the fiery lake for ETERNITY. I'm going to rationalize they are fucking up their kids anyhow. Getting them to think about the wackadoodle crapola might result in fewer kids getting whooped in the long run.

Damn, I am craving shrimp now . . .

(July 15, 2014 at 10:48 am)Napoléon Wrote: Yeah, I've totally reported that page. People on there talking about using belts on their kids. I hope other people report it as well.

Fucking disgusting.


My two cents for what it's worth:

If you resort to spanking it just shows that you don't know how to control your kid. I honestly think people who do this should take a parenting class. I know Jacob said it would have made his particular scenario better. But that's bullshit. Better for who? You? Because you don't want spend the time on a kid who is just playing up? So you'd much rather resort to smacking them instead? Sure it'll stop the playing up, for now. But that kid isn't going to be any happier for it, and it should pretty obvious in this day and age that spanking is wrong. The reasons shouldn't even need to be discussed. People need to watch some god damn Supernanny. Parenting isn't always about telling a kid off when they're doing something wrong. How about actually giving them an incentive to be nice and polite. Positive reinforcement instead of negative correction. Most parents completely ignore that side to parenting and just resort to hitting them whenever the kid messes about. How is a kid going to get any better when they have no incentive or reward for being better. If the only thing the parent knows is spanking then the only thing the kid will do is be a little jackass in turn.

If the only thing you've gotten out of the comments here from those of us who have occasionally spanked our children is "the only thing [we] know is spanking", I'd suggest a closer rereading.

Also, the idea that "the reasons shouldn't even need to be disucssed" is interesting. It strikes me as a subtle attempt to insult the intelligence of those who disagree with you.

Here, here's a post I made on another forum about one time I used force with my son:

Thump Wrote:It is one option, not the only option, not the ultimate option. It depends very much on the child and what they value; it also depends on the urgency of the situation. I smacked my son's hand when he was four years old and reaching for a pan full of hot bacon greasse, because my smack was going to be much more forgiving than second-degree burns -- and taking the time to talk it out wasn't really an option.

Broad brushes aren't very useful for detail work, of course. But remember, the details are what make people behave as they do.

(July 15, 2014 at 4:23 pm)alpha male Wrote: I think it's simplistic to say spanking bad or spanking good. It depends on the overall relationship, the age of the child, and other factors.

Bingo.

(July 16, 2014 at 11:14 am)Napoléon Wrote: Baumrind doesn't seem to take into account that minor physical punishment often escalates into abuse, and many studies have proven that this is the case.

I agree that it can escalate.
If it happens often or not, I don't know.
Most parents seem to refrain from such escalations... most of the time.

That said, any institution studying this subject must send out only one message: never hit your kids.
This will bring the problem into the parents' awareness and significantly diminish these escalations.

(July 15, 2014 at 5:14 pm)Losty Wrote: When it comes to non-abusive spanking (especially in dangerous situations) I think it's just a difference in parenting styles. This is not a topic that I see any point in debating.

There is one in there about spanking the bare bottom of a 4 year old girl 12 times. That is a topic I will debate. It's child abuse if it's a real story. After reading some of those stories I think many of those people are just perverts getting off on making up sick stories.

Honestly, I consider it to be a serious possibility that at least some of those replies are Poes of a sort.

(July 16, 2014 at 11:58 am)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: If the only thing you've gotten out of the comments here from those of us who have occasionally spanked our children is "the only thing [we] know is spanking", I'd suggest a closer rereading.

Keep telling yourself that.

Quote:Also, the idea that "the reasons shouldn't even need to be disucssed" is interesting. It strikes me as a subtle attempt to insult the intelligence of those who disagree with you.

I didn't mean to be subtle. I am insulting your intelligence.

Quote:Here, here's a post I made on another forum about one time I used force with my son:

Thump Wrote:It is one option, not the only option, not the ultimate option. It depends very much on the child and what they value; it also depends on the urgency of the situation. I smacked my son's hand when he was four years old and reaching for a pan full of hot bacon greasse, because my smack was going to be much more forgiving than second-degree burns -- and taking the time to talk it out wasn't really an option.

Broad brushes aren't very useful for detail work, of course. But remember, the details are what make people behave as they do.

Wow. How is this the same as using spanking as discipline? This is a situation where if you don't do something your child is going to severely injure themself, obviously slapping your kids hand in this instance is ok. Are you fucking stupid? Do you seriously think I wouldn't do the same if my kid were going to burn his hand?

Fuck me. Do you need me to insult your intelligence any more? Man. I actually cannot comprehend this level of stupidity. If you can't work out the difference between this situation and using spanking for actual discipline, then you are literally too stupid to insult.

Let me change your scenario. I saw a child on the street about to be run over. I had to rugby tackle him to save him from being killed as a lorry was driving at him. Is it okay to use force in this instance? Ofcourse it is. Is it okay to use force to explain to a child why it's not smart to play in the street? NO.

I wouldn't do the same. Every time someone brings this kind of situation up, I fail to understand why a person wouldn't just grab their son's hand instead of slapping it.

(July 16, 2014 at 12:09 pm)Napoléon Wrote: Keep telling yourself that.

As opposed to you reading for comprehension? I'm sure this is much lass taxing on your brain, such as it is ... but it's pretty meaningless drivel.

Quote:I didn't mean to be subtle. I am insulting your intelligence.

I'm left to assume you've no response to my point, then. Weak shit here.

Quote:Fuck me. Do you need me to insult your intelligence any more? Man. I actually cannot comprehend this level of stupidity. If you can't work out the difference between this situation and using spanking for actual discipline, then you are literally too stupid to insult.

Oh, dear, that really rustles my jimmies. An Internet insult? I may as well kill myself.

Meanwhile, when you show yourself capable of a civil discussion -- and nuanced thought -- I'll return to this element of the discussion. But again, I'd suggest rereading what I've written.

Quote:Let me change your scenario. I saw a guy on the street about to be run over. I had to rugby tackle him to save him from being killed. Is it okay to rugby tackle the guy in this instance? Yes. Is it okay to rugby tackle anyone at any other time aside from playing fucking rugby. NO.

You're so close ... and so far away.

(July 16, 2014 at 12:21 pm)Losty Wrote: I wouldn't do the same. Every time someone brings this kind of situation up, I fail to understand why a person wouldn't just grab their son's hand instead of slapping it.

To be fair, I can understand that the urgency of the situation requires force. But this is a situation that has nothing to do with discipline. Which is what this thread is concerning.