So, why was it necessary for God to have Jesus sacrificed for our sins? Now, I know that this whole notion of Jesus' death being "a sacrifice" is stupid, and I've already covered that elsewhere, but for sake of this thread, lets assume it counts. Why did it have to happen? By what mechanism does the death of one innocent person atone for the sins of others? I was thinking about this and realized that this was something that God either chose to do, or somehow had to do, and either way, it has weird consequences most Christians don't like to consider.

God had to go through with it:
So, for whatever reason, this bizarre self-sacrifice was vital to God forgiving our sins, and he couldn't simply just... forgive us. It's something to which God was beholden, and something he has no control over. It makes me wonder: from where did this rule come?

Conclusion: God is not omnipotent.


God chose to go through with it:
God could have forgiven us, but he instead opted to have one third of himself be sacrificed to another third of himself for reasons. Now, this seems stupid (and it is), but I guess I can't complain too much. All parties involved were consenting, even if it does look like some really freaky S&M. Still, the whole charade was unnecessary and overly theatric.

Conclusion: God's bloodlust exceeds his compassion, and he goes out of his way to cause suffering when "solving" problems.


Now, I think the second point is closest to the standard Christian stance, although they don't like to think about it much. It is actually very similar to flood apologetics and original sin apologetics, so, I guess I shouldn't be surprised. Any part of this that looks creepy at first glance (all of it) will be washed over with a veneer of [mysterious ways] to hide the blemishes.

I like the phrase "God manifested himself and sacrificed himself to himself to forgive himself".

(July 30, 2014 at 12:57 pm)RobbyPants Wrote: So, why was it necessary for God to have Jesus sacrificed for our sins? Now, I know that this whole notion of Jesus' death being "a sacrifice" is stupid,

Why bias a potential answer to begin the question?

(July 30, 2014 at 12:57 pm)RobbyPants Wrote: and I've already covered that elsewhere, but for sake of this thread, lets assume it counts. Why did it have to happen? By what mechanism does the death of one innocent person atone for the sins of others?

By the very nature of what atonement is.

(July 30, 2014 at 12:57 pm)RobbyPants Wrote: I was thinking about this and realized that this was something that God either chose to do, or somehow had to do, and either way, it has weird consequences most Christians don't like to consider.

God had to go through with it:
So, for whatever reason, this bizarre self-sacrifice was vital to God forgiving our sins, and he couldn't simply just... forgive us.
It's something to which God was beholden, and something he has no control over. It makes me wonder: from where did this rule come?

From His nature. God is just. To simply overlook wrongdoing would be unjust. God cannot deny His nature.

(July 30, 2014 at 12:57 pm)RobbyPants Wrote: Conclusion: God is not omnipotent.

A misrepresentation of the definition of omnipotence. Omnipotence excludes God doing things contrary to His character and nature (ex. God cannot lie, doesn't mean He isn't omnipotent).

(July 30, 2014 at 12:57 pm)RobbyPants Wrote: God chose to go through with it:
God could have forgiven us, but he instead opted to have one third of himself be sacrificed to another third of himself for reasons. Now, this seems stupid (and it is), but I guess I can't complain too much. All parties involved were consenting, even if it does look like some really freaky S&M. Still, the whole charade was unnecessary and overly theatric.

How would you go about proving that 'the whole charade was unnecessary and overly theatric'?

(July 30, 2014 at 12:57 pm)RobbyPants Wrote: Conclusion: God's bloodlust exceeds his compassion, and he goes out of his way to cause suffering when "solving" problems.

Not true at all. Consider what must occur for a being to be both just and merciful and the same time.

hock: It's almost like if you've heard one apologetic, you've heard them all.

(July 30, 2014 at 1:16 pm)orangebox21 Wrote: From His nature. God is just. To simply overlook wrongdoing would be unjust. God cannot deny His nature.

A misrepresentation of the definition of omnipotence. Omnipotence excludes God doing things contrary to His character and nature (ex. God cannot lie, doesn't mean He isn't omnipotent).

Where did God get his nature and character from?

Remember first off that the gospel stories of Jesus's trial and death were clearly fictitious. So why write this story? Early Christians believed that there was no atonement without blood. The idea of simply forgiving was alien to them.

It seemed to me as a kid that Jesus is apparently like the dart board with God's own face on it that God takes out his darts on instead of throwing them at us, his creations that he made imperfect and then got mad at and drowned for being imperfect.

Now I want go shoot darts!

(July 30, 2014 at 12:57 pm)RobbyPants Wrote: God had to go through with it:
So, for whatever reason, this bizarre self-sacrifice was vital to God forgiving our sins, and he couldn't simply just... forgive us. It's something to which God was beholden, and something he has no control over. It makes me wonder: from where did this rule come?

From his internal sense of justice.

Are you able to simply just...forgive anyone in any circumstance? If so, teach the method to your fellow atheists, cause they sure like to point out theist offenses. They're not simply just...forgiving.

ETA: I see that orangebox beat me to this angle in saying, "From His nature. God is just. To simply overlook wrongdoing would be unjust. God cannot deny His nature."

Why doesn't Minimalist simply just...worship god?

(July 30, 2014 at 2:01 pm)alpha male Wrote:

(July 30, 2014 at 12:57 pm)RobbyPants Wrote: God had to go through with it:
So, for whatever reason, this bizarre self-sacrifice was vital to God forgiving our sins, and he couldn't simply just... forgive us. It's something to which God was beholden, and something he has no control over. It makes me wonder: from where did this rule come?

From his internal sense of justice.

Are you able to simply just...forgive anyone in any circumstance? If so, teach the method to your fellow atheists, cause they sure like to point out theist offenses. They're not simply just...forgiving.

ETA: I see that orangebox beat me to this angle in saying, "From His nature. God is just. To simply overlook wrongdoing would be unjust. God cannot deny His nature."

Why doesn't Minimalist simply just...worship god?

The thing is that God tells us in the Bible that we have to forgive and turn the other cheek- why can't he unless you kiss his ass?