One pair of hands working is worth more than 1,000 clasped in prayer.

Kind of says it all.

(August 15, 2014 at 11:55 am)Brakeman Wrote:

(August 15, 2014 at 7:41 am)Michael Wrote: The fact is there was/is change. The mechanism behind that change is certainly debatable. Sometimes what is most needed, either for ourselves or for the benefit of others, is change within us, and prayer can be one powerful approach to that, as many of us have experienced.

My Comments were not denying a change, my comments were denying that a god conversation was going on. Once you cede that, you are simply stating that a psychotic delusional conversation is the best way that you know how to improve yourself.. how sad..

Yes, I understood that. But I didn't cede anything, other than the mechanism of prayer could be debated, but that the fact that prayer can have beneficial effects is pretty much indisputable, especially with someone who has experienced those benefits. As for 'sad', no drug-free benefits are ever sad, be they from prayer, meditation, mindfulness, etc. What is more sad, in my opinion, is closing oneself off to beneficial practices.

---

(August 15, 2014 at 1:54 pm)JesusHChrist Wrote: One pair of hands working is worth more than 1,000 clasped in prayer.

Kind of says it all.

Look at who does most work for charity. Prayer stimulates concern for others, and action fir others. Even people like Richard Dawkins have said that atheists need to find a way if galvanising themselves to do charitable work in the way theists do. And to be fair to RD he has made a serious effort in that direction.

(August 15, 2014 at 3:26 pm)Michael Wrote:

(August 15, 2014 at 11:55 am)Brakeman Wrote: My Comments were not denying a change, my comments were denying that a god conversation was going on. Once you cede that, you are simply stating that a psychotic delusional conversation is the best way that you know how to improve yourself.. how sad..

Yes, I understood that. But I didn't cede anything, other than the mechanism of prayer could be debated, but that the fact that prayer can have beneficial effects is pretty much indisputable, especially with someone who has experienced those benefits. As for 'sad', no drug-free benefits are ever sad, be they from prayer, meditation, mindfulness, etc. What is more sad, in my opinion, is closing oneself off to beneficial practices.

I can totally agree on the meditation/mindfulness/prayer being beneficial to the practictioner. I'm just not wired to be able to really 'clear my mind' or engage in meditation in any real way (just not my scene), and I don't pray for obvious reasons, but having positive thoughts and helpful ideas can certainly help out the folks that experience them. It's the mechanism of the experience that needs to be examined, and since you didn't claim "god did it" or anything, I'm in agreement with you.

(August 15, 2014 at 3:26 pm)Michael Wrote: Look at who does most work for charity. Prayer stimulates concern for others, and action fir others. Even people like Richard Dawkins have said that atheists need to find a way if galvanising themselves to do charitable work in the way theists do.

So you have a nice turn of phrase. But it's been rather mugged by a gang of ugly facts.

You're conflating the *act* of prayer and it's efficacy with the *actions* of humans and those action's associated efficacy.

The point being, the *act* of prayer is indistinguishable from doing nothing at all, vs. the very real and tangible results from humans actually doing something.

(August 15, 2014 at 3:33 pm)JesusHChrist Wrote:

(August 15, 2014 at 3:26 pm)Michael Wrote: Look at who does most work for charity. Prayer stimulates concern for others, and action fir others. Even people like Richard Dawkins have said that atheists need to find a way if galvanising themselves to do charitable work in the way theists do.

So you have a nice turn of phrase. But it's been rather mugged by a gang of ugly facts.

You're conflating the *act* of prayer and it's efficacy with the *actions* of humans and those action's associated efficacy.

The point being, the *act* of prayer is indistinguishable from doing nothing at all, vs. the very real and tangible results from humans actually doing something.

Quite right. prayer is a function of being religious, and is neither necessary not sufficient for the doing of charitable deeds.

---

Seems to me that we're putting prayer on a pedestal in some way and saying, wow, it makes you feel good so it must be special in some way. There are lots of things that make you feel good: a brisk walk or some exercise will do that, a nice meal, doing a good act or achieving some task. Hell, getting laid makes you feel good! Prayer is just another man-made system of making people feel good, that's all.

(August 15, 2014 at 3:30 pm)FatAndFaithless Wrote:

(August 15, 2014 at 3:26 pm)Michael Wrote: Yes, I understood that. But I didn't cede anything, other than the mechanism of prayer could be debated, but that the fact that prayer can have beneficial effects is pretty much indisputable, especially with someone who has experienced those benefits. As for 'sad', no drug-free benefits are ever sad, be they from prayer, meditation, mindfulness, etc. What is more sad, in my opinion, is closing oneself off to beneficial practices.

I can totally agree on the meditation/mindfulness/prayer being beneficial to the practictioner. I'm just not wired to be able to really 'clear my mind' or engage in meditation in any real way (just not my scene), and I don't pray for obvious reasons, but having positive thoughts and helpful ideas can certainly help out the folks that experience them. It's the mechanism of the experience that needs to be examined, and since you didn't claim "god did it" or anything, I'm in agreement with you.

I think it's also worth noting that 'prayer' covers a wide range of activities. For example I join with Buddhists once a week and sometimes we practice Metta meditation. In this type of mediation we hold different people in mind and say "May x be at peace. May x be free from suffering. May x be happy". Some believe there may be a metaphysical effect, and others don't, but what is clear is that regular practice of this type of mediation (which I consider a type of prayer) focusses our minds on the needs of others. We are more likely then to take action to help them be happy, to be at peace, to be at suffering. This can be especially true if we mediate with people in mind who we're having problems with; it can 'heal' our bad attitudes towards other people. The focus of metta mediation then often broadens out, encompassing all animals, and that practice really helped to reconnect me to my 'stewardship' (as Christians tend to call it) for all of nature. It was key to me becoming vegetarian. So another effect of prayer for me has been a heightened sense of responsibility for the Earth, in so far as I am able in my very little corner of it. Alternatively it could be just as my wife says, that I hang out with too many hippies :-)

My Buddhist friends consider this mediation rather than prayer, but to me it is very prayerful. I see that type of prayer as much more aligned to what Christ taught than the 'shopping list' type of prayer that treats God as some kind of cosmic servant to us. I relate very much to meditative prayer.

(August 15, 2014 at 2:24 am)Eel_LahjicK Wrote: If you believe everything that happens is god's will, then why be so arrogant to ask him to change it? Wouldn't praying be a waste of time anyway, since his will is going to be done regardless?

That's something I wonder about as well, due to the habit that JWs have of appending "god willing" to many of their plans. "See you tomorrow, god willing!" It implies that we are subject to god's plans and desires, and if he earmarked us for an early termination, then there's nothing we can do about it. Not only that, there's nothing we should do about it-- who would know better how to manage things than god?

But if we're just pinballs bouncing around in god's grand arcade, why do JWs also frequently pray to god to protect them, to see them safely through a day or a trip, or to watch over his followers and make sure they come to no harm? If god's will is that a bus runs me over and sends me on an early trip to the afterlife, wasn't my prayer then just a selfish attempt at getting around god's own plans? (And wouldn't this lead to a situation where god makes me get hit by a bus, then complains that I was acting like a prick?)

Why would any believer ask god for anything? If god already has your life mapped out and his will must be done for the betterment of all, then prayer seems superfluous. I think it's interesting that Jesus prays to god to spare him from his fate and after he has been beaten and tormented and hung on a cross to die, he cries out to god "why have you forsaken me?" So maybe Jesus saw the absurdity of expecting prayer from your subjects when you already know you're going to stick with the plan?

(August 15, 2014 at 3:43 pm)Michael Wrote:

(August 15, 2014 at 3:30 pm)FatAndFaithless Wrote: I can totally agree on the meditation/mindfulness/prayer being beneficial to the practictioner. I'm just not wired to be able to really 'clear my mind' or engage in meditation in any real way (just not my scene), and I don't pray for obvious reasons, but having positive thoughts and helpful ideas can certainly help out the folks that experience them. It's the mechanism of the experience that needs to be examined, and since you didn't claim "god did it" or anything, I'm in agreement with you.

I think it's also worth noting that 'prayer' covers a wide range of activities. For example I join with Buddhists once a week and sometimes we practice Metta meditation. In this type of mediation we hold different people in mind and say "May x be at peace. May x be free from suffering. May x be happy". Some believe there may be a metaphysical effect, and others don't, but what is clear is that regular practice of this type of mediation (which I consider a type of prayer) focusses our minds on the needs of others. We are more likely then to take action to help them be happy, to be at peace, to be at suffering. This can be especially true if we mediate with people in mind who we're having problems with; it can 'heal' our bad attitudes towards other people. The focus of metta mediation then broadens out, encompassing all animals, and that practice really helped to reconnect me to my 'stewardship' (as Christians tend to call it) for all of nature. It was key to me becoming vegetarian. Alternatively it could be just as my wife says, that I hang out with too many hippies :-)

My Buddhist friends consider this mediation rather than prayer, but to me it is very prayerful. I see that type of prayer as much more aligned to what Christ taught than the 'shopping list' type of prayer that treats God as some kind of cosmic servant to us. I relate very much to meditative prayer.

And that's all fine and dandy, we can keep on agreeing on the fact that meditation/prayer/introspection has benefits for the practictioner. But if you're going to claim that mechanism is a God, you're gonna run into a laundry list of problems, especially on this forum. Most notably, evidence.

(August 15, 2014 at 3:33 pm)JesusHChrist Wrote:

(August 15, 2014 at 3:26 pm)Michael Wrote: Look at who does most work for charity. Prayer stimulates concern for others, and action fir others. Even people like Richard Dawkins have said that atheists need to find a way if galvanising themselves to do charitable work in the way theists do.

So you have a nice turn of phrase. But it's been rather mugged by a gang of ugly facts.

You're conflating the *act* of prayer and it's efficacy with the *actions* of humans and those action's associated efficacy.

The point being, the *act* of prayer is indistinguishable from doing nothing at all, vs. the very real and tangible results from humans actually doing something.

On the contrary. It was me that made the distinction in the first place, suggesting that one could debate the mechanism of prayer while still acknowledging the beneficial effects. You might not have noticed it, but I was giving atheists a way into examining what may be positive about prayer without having to believe in the divine realm. It's not unlike how psychology has sought what is good about mindfulness mediation without embracing Buddhism (though my Buddhist friends do feel it has been hijacked for selfish reasons, and the 'mindfulness movement' has totally failed to grasp the essence of selfless transformation at the centre of Buddhist beliefs).

Prayer doesn't comport with the idea of a god with a plan.