(August 19, 2014 at 12:44 pm)oukoida Wrote: This system is flawed because you have no way of knowing if the result is real or just a figment of your imagination caused by wishful thinking and confirmation bias.

Perhaps the Bible can explain.

1 Corinthians 1

18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written:

“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;
the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.”
20 Where is the wise person? Where is the teacher of the law? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. 22 Jews demand signs and Greeks look for wisdom, 23 but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24 but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than human strength.

26 Brothers and sisters, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth. 27 But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. 28 God chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are, 29 so that no one may boast before him. 30 It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. 31 Therefore, as it is written: “Let the one who boasts boast in the Lord.”

1 Corinthians 2

1 And so it was with me, brothers and sisters. When I came to you, I did not come with eloquence or human wisdom as I proclaimed to you the testimony about God.[a] 2 For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. 3 I came to you in weakness with great fear and trembling. 4 My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit’s power, 5 so that your faith might not rest on human wisdom, but on God’s power.

6 We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. 7 No, we declare God’s wisdom, a mystery that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 8 None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9 However, as it is written:

“What no eye has seen,
what no ear has heard,
and what no human mind has conceived”—
the things God has prepared for those who love him—
10 these are the things God has revealed to us by his Spirit.

The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11 For who knows a person’s thoughts except their own spirit within them? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12 What we have received is not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words.[c] 14 The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit. 15 The person with the Spirit makes judgments about all things, but such a person is not subject to merely human judgments, 16 for,

“Who has known the mind of the Lord
so as to instruct him?"
But we have the mind of Christ.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se...ersion=NIV

Less of that, there's been enough circular reasoning already today.

Well Dirch I think I have managed to come to a conclusion. Please bare in mind I'm not a great intelligence. I have not made any great discoveries, published any works or invented anything profound. I'm a poor speller as I often lack attention to detail. My understanding of things may be simple to you but I do try to understand.

You said you preformed this 'knocking' business and it resulted in spiritual gifts.

Part of this gift or perhaps because of it or simply the success of the 'knocking' was that:

(August 13, 2014 at 2:05 am)Drich Wrote: What I feel as a believer that I did not before is a greater capacity for love, contentment, peace and joy.

This is part of the proof, to yourself, that the 'knocking' worked and god is with you and believable.

Ok I get that.

You also said that this is a quest or mission. Of instruction? I think we can infer it is an instruction in your belief system which you believe sincerely because of the success of the 'knocking' and the result of that success.

What I can't reconcile is that somebody with a self professed “greater capacity for love” on a quest or mission of instruction could behave as you do when performing that instruction.

I, in my very limited experience, have not encountered a teacher who belittled or made sport of their students as an instrument of their instruction. I don't believe this is taught to new teachers, quite the opposite in fact.

So I don't see how that would follow from your previous conviction. I would expect that somebody with your capacities would always strive to be calm, measured and kind if not always successful.

So I guess my argument is an ad hominem. In that your actions do not bare out your convictions. So I reject your convictions because they don't seem to carry enough weight with yourself to strive to act on them.

That is just the way it's come across to me. My apologize if I've missed some greater point but I had trouble getting past this conundrum of what you've become with the holy spirit and how you act when sharing that experience. Like I said I'm no great thinker.

Quote:I am in sales as apart of my Job and I have to ask seek and knock every single day.

That makes a lot of sense, Drippy. We are constantly bombarded by door-to-door salesmen (and it is over 100 most days out here in the Summer) and my wife and I always ask.... "what kind of an asshole would think that was a useful way of selling something."


Now I have my answer. You.

(August 19, 2014 at 2:56 pm)Minimalist Wrote:

Quote:I am in sales as apart of my Job and I have to ask seek and knock every single day.

That makes a lot of sense, Drippy. We are constantly bombarded by door-to-door salesmen (and it is over 100 most days out here in the Summer) and my wife and I always ask.... "what kind of an asshole would think that was a useful way of selling something."


Now I have my answer. You.

Hmm....I have a friend who sometimes calls me drippy

(August 19, 2014 at 3:00 pm)Losty Wrote: Hmm....I have a friend who sometimes calls me drippy

I somehow doubt that your friend has to go through the trouble of that incessant, infernal knocking. And your second coming is probably a hell of a lot more reliable than Jesus'.

Well... there is probably some knocking involved.

(August 19, 2014 at 11:31 am)Rhythm Wrote: Kind of a misattribution. I've never personally given enough shits to to go through the rigamarole for any god (and thusly have never had any promises washed away). Others, unfortunately enough for them, have - they've told you so, and it didn't work for them. You are either incapable of, or refuse to address their claims with any consistency. If x happening is proof of god, then x not happening would be...what?

You argue against your own claim with your endless modifiers. They are excuses Drich, and you've been seen straight through.

X= the Holy Spirit

The Holy Spirit is the proof of God.

When we ask seek and knock we receive the proof of God in the Holy Spirit as per Luke 11.

No modifiers. If one A/S/K as out lined in luke 11 then He will receive the Holy Spirit.

If one does not have the Holy Spirit, then He has not approached God as outlined in Luke 11.

Real simple.

But..I thought the Holy Spirit is God. How can he be proof for himself if he is the claim in the first place?

(August 19, 2014 at 12:44 pm)oukoida Wrote:

drippy Wrote:Only God is perfect, only God is Good.

We know the bible is accurate because in the bible their are promises. If one does XYZ he will get 123. I know the bible is accurate because the one perfect and good God has kept His end of the deal after i kept mine.

Let me get this straight:
At first, I know that the Bible is not infallible and there might be errors here and there.
The bible tells me about its god and makes promises (all of them quite vague and indeterminate) ==> I do what the bible tells me to (aka wish REALLY hard) ==> the promises are fulfilled ==> God exists and it's the one of the Bible, which therefore becomes accurate.

This is what is getting through of your position.

This system is flawed because you have no way of knowing if the result is real or just a figment of your imagination caused by wishful thinking and confirmation bias.

That is, you are (unconsciously) actually starting from the conclusion (god exists) because it's an idea you happen to like, and then you try to justify and rationalize your belief through scripture.

Ah, no. Again God is an complete independent and autonomous being. The fact that many of you have your own view of God that has failed under scrutiny causing you to abandon your faith is testament to that.

To know God is not apart of your imagination is much like the experience of knowing that anyother person of you life is not imaginary. Their is direct and constant input that often times opposes your own ideas and values.

---

(August 19, 2014 at 12:44 pm)oukoida Wrote: Let me get this straight:
At first, I know that the Bible is not infallible and there might be errors here and there.

i might know of one.

Quote:The bible tells me about its god and makes promises (all of them quite vague and indeterminate) ==>

do you have an example?
What is offered in luke 11 is spelled in plain english.

Quote:I do what the bible tells me to (aka wish REALLY hard) ==> the promises are fulfilled ==> God exists and it's the one of the Bible, which therefore becomes accurate.

you have read anything have you.

Quote:This is what is getting through of your position.

This system is flawed because you have no way of knowing if the result is real or just a figment of your imagination caused by wishful thinking and confirmation bias.

That is, you are (unconsciously) actually starting from the conclusion (god exists) because it's an idea you happen to like, and then you try to justify and rationalize your belief through scripture.

Actually i did not start from a position that God exists. I start a netural position to see if any thing existed outside this life.[/quote]