(August 20, 2014 at 4:08 pm)Michael Wrote: Hi Diablo.

Well I'm a scientist (25 years post-doc work in biomedical sciences). If you mean by 'critical appraisal' the application of scientific method, then I would say that faith lies outside of the purview of science. The scientific method explores a nature that could depend on a creator and sustainer God, or have no dependence on any God; there's nothing in the scientific method that is going to distinguish between the two. I'm happy to let science shape my wider world-view, but you should probably bear in mind that you rarely find people taking a highly literalistic reading of scripture here in the UK; so I've never tried to fit science together with young earth creationism, for example (that just has never been an option for me from the start; I start from the premise of an ancient Earth and life that has evolved, and is evolving, from the very simplest life to more complex forms).

I didn't just mean from a scientific perspective. In business, for example, if you have to consider a plan, or an acquisition, you have to think critically through all the permutations, some known and some just guessed. That's how I'd define critical appraisal, the use of logic, deduction and intuition which we all employ.

Faith and science do overlap, where the one makes statements which the other can disprove; that's unavoidable. Outside of that, if any religious belief may be possible without breaking known rules, then you're entitled, of course; but I'd prefer a firmer basis before I made any life-changing decisions.

Only when playing music.

I've had some experiences on magic mushrooms and dmt that I would describe as mystical. Do they count?

(August 20, 2014 at 3:25 pm)Diablo Wrote: ...Does the lack of logic bother you at all?

Does the experience of pain need to be logical in order to prove to you that it is real? Likewise, mystical experience (in my own case) is direct and unmediated.

None of the categories in the poll connect to my most striking experiences.
These being subsequent to my becoming a believer.

We were on a hilltop overlooking most of a Jesus '79 event area, it was nearly dusk and had a little campfire started when I noticed a metal roofed pavilion in the distance below on fire.
The flames were shooting 2 to 3 times the height of it.
I thought it very odd, especially considering the construction, and said to my wife. "Look at that building down there on fire!"
She said- I don't see anything.
I said, It's right there, pointing at the structure.
She said- there's no fire.
Gradually the flames got smaller until it went out completely.
Still wondering the next morning what went on, I walked down to inspect the pine trees beyond the building, no sign of fire.
Besides, this was Pennsylvania -well watered.
It was a vision.
I had asked for something special for the occasion.

Two people were using the open sided building- CJ Mahaney and Iverna Tomkins for their seminars.
My take was that, just as the Disciples observed fire upon the heads of one another- God was giving His approval to what was said there.

The other outstanding weird experience was many years later.
We were preparing to go to a believers meeting in Toronto
(the Toronto Blessing meetings were ongoing).
It was 20 minutes after 6 Pm and I was finishing dinner, when I said to my wife, "We will never get there in an hour and ten minutes", figuring we would just be late.

Toronto is just over 100 miles from home, across the border, and I purposely delayed leaving for the 7:30 beginning of the meeting because the Queen E is brutal with traffic during rush hour.

All the clocks (including the car's) were set the week before for Daylight savings (I set them to the minute).
We loaded up the car after I ate and left, that would have been around 6:30.
All the way up into Canada I favored the passing lane going about 80 along with the fast traffic.
Getting down the 427 just past the airport, I looked at the clock, it showed 7:30. Very strange.
We rolled into the parking lot at 7:40, exactly an hour and ten minutes from departure.
The meeting had just begun with the clock inside showing about 7:45.

I thought to myself- "So it really only takes this long to get here?
I thought Toronto was a couple of hours away, we may as well go home after the meeting rather than staying in a hotel"

The ride home was a mile shorter at 103 and took the normal time to get back- driving the same speed - a bit under 2 hours.

Later, I calculated the average speed of the trip there- 89 mph.
Impossible.

I had heard of other guys who were due to speak at meetings experiencing a time/distance warp- hours late suddenly being at the exit for their destination and making it on time.
But not an ordinary believer.
But again, I had asked for something special to happen ( I really had healing in mind).
I remember all the towns we drove thru, Hamilton, over the canal and the increasing cities all the way up.
I never figured out how God did it.

(August 20, 2014 at 11:57 am)Confused Ape Wrote: I've changed my vote to include -

Quote:15. As a result of this experience, I now feel more connected to other people and/or something greater.

This relates to the fact that we aren't just part of the universe but the universe is within us and everything is connected. I regard it as right brain perception. I don't think of the something greater as being God, though, because the universe is greater than me.

I've certainly heard Neil deGrasse Tyson express similar sentiments.

(August 20, 2014 at 9:53 pm)whateverist Wrote: I've certainly heard Neil deGrasse Tyson express similar sentiments.

Carl Sagan said something similar. My own shift in perception resulted from trying to 'feel' what this really means if that makes sense.

What I find interesting about it is that it's the scientific version of God is in all things. There's no proof that God exists but we know the universe does.

(August 21, 2014 at 5:18 am)Confused Ape Wrote: There's no proof that God exists but we know the universe does.

By definition, the universe is the sum total of everything, or All. The physical universe appears to be a contingent feature within this Totality. From Parmenides through Aquinas and Swedenborg, this Totality, has been regarded as the "One" from which all things come. Looking at the physical universe and applying reason to experience, I do not see how someone who is sufficiently educated can fail to recognize the 'god of the philosophers'.

(August 20, 2014 at 7:03 pm)ChadWooters Wrote:

(August 20, 2014 at 3:25 pm)Diablo Wrote: ...Does the lack of logic bother you at all?

Does the experience of pain need to be logical in order to prove to you that it is real? Likewise, mystical experience (in my own case) is direct and unmediated.

Pain is logical, in that it be explained by having nerves etc. Because your experience is direct and unmediated doesn't mean that it's real. It's well known that hunger, thirst and loneliness (wandering in the desert, for example) can produce hallucinations, as can other things.

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(August 21, 2014 at 10:35 am)ChadWooters Wrote:

(August 21, 2014 at 5:18 am)Confused Ape Wrote: There's no proof that God exists but we know the universe does.

By definition, the universe is the sum total of everything, or All. The physical universe appears to be a contingent feature within this Totality. From Parmenides through Aquinas and Swedenborg, this Totality, has been regarded as the "One" from which all things come. Looking at the physical universe and applying reason to experience, I do not see how someone who is sufficiently educated can fail to recognize the 'god of the philosophers'.

That's a bit weird. How do we jump from the universe to god? And really, your comment about 'someone who is sufficiently educated' is unnecessary.

I've had experiences that seemed mystical and at times I thought they were, but I'm a deeply unspiritual person now and as soon as someone tells me they are spiritual I can't help but feel a twinge of rage for some reason.

Last night I watched celebrity big brother and gary busey told a story about his dad's spirit once flew through him followed by patrick swayzee's spirit, and it just made me grind my teeth in anger that the people listening to him say these things in person were almost DEFINITELY thinking "HAHAHAHAHA FUCK OFF WITH THIS BULLSHIT" but they had to say things along the lines of "Hmmmm, was that a pleasant experience?" Out of politeness.

But anyway the things I've done that I used to think might have a bit of mysticalness to them were taking acid, mushrooms and ecstasy, these days I think no, it was just my brain on a load of drugs.
Another time was once I got a book out on ghosts when I was young and a part of it was about outerbody experiences and the book told you how to be positioned in a way best suited to have an outerbody experience and I did it with my cousins stood outside the room, I felt this slow rippling sensation along my spine which was really weird and I got goosebumps all over, I didn't wait to see what happened next though because I just shot out of bed and ran away. That could have been anything, people get shivers randomly all the time, I was young at the time and believed in ghosts but even then I wasn't convinced what had happened was anything spiritual.