http://apnews.excite.com/article/2014082...0b4aa.html

Quote: BERLIN (AP) — Humans and Neanderthals may have coexisted in Europe for more than 5,000 years, providing ample time for the two species to meet and mix, according to new research.

Using new carbon dating techniques and mathematical models, researchers examined about 200 samples found at 40 sites from Spain to Russia, according to a study published Wednesday in the journal Nature. They concluded with a high probability that pockets of Neanderthal culture survived until between 41,030 and 39,260 years ago.

Of course, this still presupposes that HNS and HSS were different "species" and not merely some isolated clans which interbred for too long a period of time.

Here's my favorite graphic of Neanderthal and Aurignacian (archaic Cro-Magnon European) contact. Grey is Homo neanderthalensis, dark grey is Homo sapiens sapiens. Numbers are generations before the present, but in terms of thousands of years I've heard anywhere between 35-40 KYA for first contact (after divergence 350-400 KYA between African and European branches of Homo heidelbergensis, the former becoming Neanderthals and the latter humans) between archaic humans and Neanderthals and between 28-25 KYA for the final disappearance of Neanderthals.

Anyone who's ever watched rugby knows that this is true; Here's Martin Johnson:



And Sebastian Chabal:

I saw a History Channel special that probably originally aired on the Discovery channel over a year ago on this.

Isn't some lab mapping the neanderthal genome? Isn't this idea of the mixing of the two species out of debate?

(August 20, 2014 at 2:42 pm)Minimalist Wrote: http://apnews.excite.com/article/2014082...0b4aa.html

Quote: BERLIN (AP) — Humans and Neanderthals may have coexisted in Europe for more than 5,000 years, providing ample time for the two species to meet and mix, according to new research.

Using new carbon dating techniques and mathematical models, researchers examined about 200 samples found at 40 sites from Spain to Russia, according to a study published Wednesday in the journal Nature. They concluded with a high probability that pockets of Neanderthal culture survived until between 41,030 and 39,260 years ago.

Of course, this still presupposes that HNS and HSS were different "species" and not merely some isolated clans which interbred for too long a period of time.

Interesting read, and I think the species line between HNS and HSS was blurred to some extent; I've heard (previous to this) there was some interbreeding.

(August 21, 2014 at 6:48 am)Sejanus Wrote: Interesting read, and I think the species line between HNS and HSS was blurred to some extent; I've heard (previous to this) there was some interbreeding.

That seems likely given that all non-African people have Neanderthal DNA.

http://www.sci-news.com/othersciences/an...01734.html

But given the tiny Neanderthal contribution to the genome of modern humans outside Europe, neither Neanderthal nor sapiens worked very hard at mingling during the time of their overlap.

Also, To be of the same species, two populations A and B must be able to interbreed both ways, A male - B female, A female - B male, to produce fertile off springs. If fertile offspring can only be produced in one way, then the two populations are genetically close, as close as between lions and tigers, but not of the same species.

While Neanderthals contributed a few percent to the nuclear DNA of modern Eurasians, they contributed zero percent to the mitochondria DNA of modern humans. This means all the successful interbreeding leaving genetic legacy to the present day were by Neanderthal males with sapien females. There were no instances of Neanderthal females mating with sapien males that left any genetic legacy to the present day. This suggests Neanderthals and humans were not of the same specie.

(August 21, 2014 at 6:57 am)Chuck Wrote: This means all the successful interbreeding leaving genetic legacy to the present day were by Neanderthal males with sapien females. There were no instances of Neanderthal females mating with sapien males that left any genetic legacy to the present day.

Wow. Interspecies breeding as a metaphor for my high school experience.

(August 21, 2014 at 6:57 am)Chuck Wrote: But given the tiny Neanderthal contribution to the genome of modern humans outside Europe, neither Neanderthal nor sapiens worked very hard at mingling during the time of their overlap.

Also, To be of the same species, two populations A and B must be able to interbreed both ways, A male - B female, A female - B male, to produce fertile off springs. If fertile offspring can only be produced in one way, then the two populations are genetically close, as close as between lions and tigers, but not of the same species.

While Neanderthals contributed a few percent to the nuclear DNA of modern Eurasians, they contributed zero percent to the mitochondria DNA of modern humans. This means all the successful interbreeding leaving genetic legacy to the present day were by Neanderthal males with sapien females. There were no instances of Neanderthal females mating with sapien males that left any genetic legacy to the present day. This suggests Neanderthals and humans were not of the same specie.

I meant outside Africa.

---

(August 21, 2014 at 9:44 am)bennyboy Wrote:

(August 21, 2014 at 6:57 am)Chuck Wrote: This means all the successful interbreeding leaving genetic legacy to the present day were by Neanderthal males with sapien females. There were no instances of Neanderthal females mating with sapien males that left any genetic legacy to the present day.

Wow. Interspecies breeding as a metaphor for my high school experience.

You were the sapien bitch?

(August 21, 2014 at 12:34 pm)Chuck Wrote: You were the sapien bitch?

Ewwww-- but at least then, I would have gotten some action. Nope-- I was the poor sapien dude watching Thog the Neanderthal drag my potention mates off into his man cave every weekend.