(June 9, 2010 at 11:04 am)mo3taz3nbar Wrote:

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Quote:2:223 (from Abdullah Yussuf Ali) Your wives are as a tilth unto you; so approach your tilth when or how ye will; but do some good act for your souls beforehand; and fear Allah.
If your explanation was the original intent of this verse, why did they not write explicitly about feelings and emotions, or at least something like "be good to her during the act" ? The message is not clear at all, it seems like a general advice to do some good acts for both of them without specifying which acts. Moreover, it says "BEFOREHAND" (and all translations agree that it is something done BEFORE the act) so it can't be to care about her during the act.

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dont expect that god will tell in the Quran the words in such details regarding sex it is said in a beautiful way and simple that makes you get it without getting in details. and also you should think why god said after these words and fear Allah? and yes its something before act its like dont start having sex with your wife when she is not in the same position as you are because this is humilating you are not having sex with a couch lol. you may think thats wierd to be mentioned in the Quran but this is the general idea when having sex with your wife as if you are not acting with respect and you just deal with her during sex as an object believe me that will be reflected in your relationship regarding respect to each other(do some searches on statistics regarding this issue) one of my married friends was having problems with his wife a lot after marriage so i asked him was this problems there before marriage he said no so i just told him this verse and you cant imagine how his marriage life changed.

Well, maybe god should have gone into details regarding sex because it would surely have prevented the sexual abuses on women by their husband.

(June 9, 2010 at 11:04 am)mo3taz3nbar Wrote:

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Quote:Therefore it ain't no misconception that Islam sometimes recommends stoning, and it applies to fucking in public.................................................this is fucked up. period.

Quote:Oh I can totally rely to your argument! Even myself I sometimes kill people for fun, but don't worry, I DO IT EXTREMELY RARELY and I make sure to let noone see me![/sarcasm] The rarity doesn't make it OK and is no excuse at all ! I cannot respect a text which demands to kill someone for having sex in public. If it's in the Qur'an (and I'd like to have the quote) then no matter how great the rest of the book might be (and it certainly is not!), it is still sick !
Same thing for the 80 lashes (24:2)

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you find this agressive see how many babies are killed(in abortion) because they have no father or because the woman is not ready to be a mother thats ok with you to kill babies who have done nothing wrong or to put an agressive punishment for having sex in public so people stop doing that? thats only one thing there is a lot of other things that is the happening because of sex before marriage
http://www.abortionno.org/Resources/fastfacts.html

1) you don't know my position on abortion.
2) this is a Tu quoque fallacy
3)I'd like to have the verse of the Qur'an about that stoning case

(June 9, 2010 at 11:04 am)mo3taz3nbar Wrote:

Quote:If there is a punishment directly afterward it's not freedom.

so you are not following the law of your country?what do you mean by directly afterward?

We talk about Freedom of the press when journalist can write whatever they want (as long as it doesn't infringe someone else's rights) without fearing any kind of punishment/condemnation.
We talk about Freedom of Speech when people can say whatever they want (as long as it doesn't infringe someone else's rights) without fearing that the police will arrest them for that.

(June 9, 2010 at 5:43 am)mo3taz3nbar Wrote: you have the freedom to do the good thing or to do the bad thing

But since God will punish those who do bad things, therefore there is no Freedom to do these bad things.

Quote:Well, maybe god should have gone into details regarding sex because it would surely have prevented the sexual abuses on women by their husband.

first:the last of the verse which says and fear Allah remove any kind of abuse that can be done its not written for no reason.
second:God is talking with humans who have brain not everything must be said in details if the general concept and understanding exists
third:you are being unreasonable by claiming sexual abuses by husband to his wife after all this talking

Quote:1) you don't know my position on abortion.
2) this is a Tu quoque fallacy
3)I'd like to have the verse of the Qur'an about that stoning case

1-check the link i gave you the main reason of abortion is having sex before marriage thats more agressive than the punishment if done in public(doing in public is a must for that punishment)
2-??????
3-there is no stoning verse in the Quran this punishment was known by sunnah and it depends on the ruler of the country the verse is about the punishment of having sex in public for the unmarried

Quote:We talk about Freedom of the press when journalist can write whatever they want (as long as it doesn't infringe someone else's rights) without fearing any kind of punishment/condemnation.
We talk about Freedom of Speech when people can say whatever they want (as long as it doesn't infringe someone else's rights) without fearing that the police will arrest them for that.
Do you get the idea ?

what does that has to do with islam or with the subject?we have freedom of speach in egypt i dont know about the other countries

(June 9, 2010 at 12:19 pm)mo3taz3nbar Wrote:

Quote:Well, maybe god should have gone into details regarding sex because it would surely have prevented the sexual abuses on women by their husband.

first:the last of the verse which says and fear Allah remove any kind of abuse that can be done its not written for no reason.
second:God is talking with humans who have brain not everything must be said in details if the general concept and understanding exists
third:you are being unreasonable by claiming sexual abuses by husband to his wife after all this talking

You showed me that there is one interpretation of this verse that is respectful of women, I'll give you that. But the other interpretations aren't completely crazy though, and the way it's written make it possible to interpret it to justify complete control of the husband over their wife's body. What I'm saying is that it could've been written clearer !
And the story of Ayaan hirsi ali and the like tell us that some people actually use today that kind of interpretation.

(June 9, 2010 at 12:19 pm)mo3taz3nbar Wrote:

Quote:1) you don't know my position on abortion.
2) this is a Tu quoque fallacy
3)I'd like to have the verse of the Qur'an about that stoning case

1-check the link i gave you the main reason of abortion is having sex before marriage thats more agressive than the punishment if done in public(doing in public is a must for that punishment)
2-??????
3-there is no stoning verse in the Quran this punishment was known by sunnah and it depends on the ruler of the country the verse is about the punishment of having sex in public for the unmarried

1) this is another topic.
2) follow the link to wikipedia on my previous post(click on "Tu quoque fallacy"). You're accusing the westerners of killing foetuses but that does not excuses or legitimizes the killings Islam condones.
3) You said earlier:

(June 8, 2010 at 12:21 pm)mo3taz3nbar Wrote: what the Quran says about having sex if aman and a woman cought having sex in public(witnessed by 4 persons)each of them get 80 lashes if not married and if married both will be stoned.

Please specify if things come from the Qur'an or the Sunnah, it makes a big difference.

(June 9, 2010 at 12:19 pm)mo3taz3nbar Wrote:

Quote:We talk about Freedom of the press when journalist can write whatever they want (as long as it doesn't infringe someone else's rights) without fearing any kind of punishment/condemnation.
We talk about Freedom of Speech when people can say whatever they want (as long as it doesn't infringe someone else's rights) without fearing that the police will arrest them for that.
Do you get the idea ?

what does that has to do with islam or with the subject?we have freedom of speach in egypt i dont know about the other countries

I've rephrased my point above.

Quote:You showed me that there is one interpretation of this verse that is respectful of women, I'll give you that. But the other interpretations aren't completely crazy though, and the way it's written make it possible to interpret it to justify complete control of the husband over their wife's body. What I'm saying is that it could've been written clearer !

the words in arabic cant have other interpretation its so clear

Quote:And the story of Ayaan hirsi ali and the like tell us that some people actually use today that kind of interpretation.

i have no idea about that plz clarify

Quote:1) this is another topic.
2) follow the link to wikipedia on my previous post(click on "Tu quoque fallacy"). You're accusing the westerners of killing foetuses but that does not excuses or legitimizes the killings Islam condones.
3) You said earlier:

(June 8, 2010 at 12:21 pm)mo3taz3nbar Wrote: what the Quran says about having sex if aman and a woman cought having sex in public(witnessed by 4 persons)each of them get 80 lashes if not married and if married both will be stoned.

Please specify if things come from the Qur'an or the Sunnah, it makes a big difference.

1-its not another topic am explaining why agressive punishment is for
2-no am not accusing anyone am talking about abortion everywhere.we dont apply this punishment in egypt and thats one of the reasons we have abortion issues also
3-sorry my fault i really didnt notice that i meant sharia

(June 9, 2010 at 1:02 pm)mo3taz3nbar Wrote:

Quote:You showed me that there is one interpretation of this verse that is respectful of women, I'll give you that. But the other interpretations aren't completely crazy though, and the way it's written make it possible to interpret it to justify complete control of the husband over their wife's body. What I'm saying is that it could've been written clearer !

the words in arabic cant have other interpretation its so clear

If it's so clear why does Abdullah Yusuf Ali doesn't make it clear in his translation:

2:222 [...]ye may approach them in any manner, time, or place ordained for you by Allah. For Allah loves those who turn to Him constantly and He loves those who keep themselves pure and clean.
2:223 Your wives are as a tilth unto you; so approach your tilth when or how ye will; but do some good act for your souls beforehand; and fear Allah.

A simple "when your wife agrees" would have made it clear. And also, why couldn't they add that "the one who forces his wife shall be punished".

I wished it wouldn't be unclear. But we have to be realistic, right now there are people in muslim countries who do use the "bad" interpretation. Not because they want to abuse their wife but because it is what they've been taught and what they honestly think that the Qur'an says (like the story in the movie "submission"). That's why I doubt that this verse is completely clear in arabic. But if you can explain to me in details what the arabic in this verse means I'll be glad to read it.

(June 9, 2010 at 1:02 pm)mo3taz3nbar Wrote:

Quote:And the story of Ayaan hirsi ali and the like tell us that some people actually use today that kind of interpretation.

i have no idea about that plz clarify

Sorry, I was refering to the movie "Submission" by Theo Van Gogh and Ayaan Hirsi Ali, which depicts the interpretation of the verses 2:222-223 and the abuses justified by it. It was posted by Paul the human on the first page of this thread.

(June 9, 2010 at 1:02 pm)mo3taz3nbar Wrote: 1-its not another topic am explaining why agressive punishment is for
1-check the link i gave you the main reason of abortion is having sex before marriage

Ok, I totally missed what you had said, sorry. But that doesn't justify stoning people for having sex outside of marriage, because it doesn't lead to abortion per se, because you can use birth control, and you can still force the two people to marry and have the child if there is one conceived outside of marriage. And abortions happens in married couples too!
In any case stoning both of them is certainly not a solution and it's barbaric!
You're trying to tell me that stoning people for an action that could have lead (in not even 1% of the times) to a situation where a decision concerning the life of a foetus has to be made is the right thing to do ?
If people aren't stupid they will just force the couple to have the child. Besides if you stone them you're gonna kill the fucking foetus! If that isn't stupid I don't know what is!

We don't stone people to death for attempted murder in the West, so I highly doubt you'll ever convince us that stoning people having sex outside of marriage is actually ethical.

(June 9, 2010 at 3:06 pm)AtheistPhil Wrote: If people aren't stupid they will just force the couple to have the child. Besides if you stone them you're gonna kill the fucking foetus! If that isn't stupid I don't know what is!

From the situations I've read of, the woman is kept alive until after she gives birth, THEN the kid is made an orphan.

(June 9, 2010 at 3:31 pm)Scented Nectar Wrote:

(June 9, 2010 at 3:06 pm)AtheistPhil Wrote: If people aren't stupid they will just force the couple to have the child. Besides if you stone them you're gonna kill the fucking foetus! If that isn't stupid I don't know what is!

From the situations I've read of, the woman is kept alive until after she gives birth, THEN the kid is made an orphan.

Well, if it's true it's really much better then ! [/sarcasm]

Quote:If it's so clear why does Abdullah Yusuf Ali doesn't make it clear in his translation:
2:222 [...]ye may approach them in any manner, time, or place ordained for you by Allah. For Allah loves those who turn to Him constantly and He loves those who keep themselves pure and clean.
2:223 Your wives are as a tilth unto you; so approach your tilth when or how ye will; but do some good act for your souls beforehand; and fear Allah.

i think you are right its not that clear in the translation but the arabic word used is really clear thats why i adviced you if you have anything you want to ask i can clarify as its the first time i notice that there is some words not clear in the translation as in arabic and i will ask for you for the best translation as my english is my second language so i may not be able to defirintiate complicated words

Quote:A simple "when your wife agrees" would have made it clear. And also, why couldn't they add that "the one who forces his wife shall be punished".

that specifying something but fear Allah is genaralized for any thing bad

Quote:I wished it wouldn't be unclear. But we have to be realistic, right now there are people in muslim countries who do use the "bad" interpretation. Not because they want to abuse their wife but because it is what they've been taught and what they honestly think that the Qur'an says (like the story in the movie "submission"). That's why I doubt that this verse is completely clear in arabic. But if you can explain to me in details what the arabic in this verse means I'll be glad to read it.

i have never seen someone interpreting this verse in a different way but maybe some of them ignore it but it cant be interpreted something else

Quote:Sorry, I was refering to the movie "Submission" by Theo Van Gogh and Ayaan Hirsi Ali, which depicts the interpretation of the verses 2:222-223 and the abuses justified by it. It was posted by Paul the human on the first page of this thread.

ok i will check it

Quote:because you can use birth control, and you can still force the two people to marry and have the child if there is one conceived outside of marriage. And abortions happens in married couples too!
In any case stoning both of them is certainly not a solution and it's barbaric!

the stoning is for the already married.and again for doing it in public you are not just doing that you are ruining the society by motivating people to do like that

Quote:You're trying to tell me that stoning people for an action that could have lead (in not even 1% of the times) to a situation where a decision concerning the life of a foetus has to be made is the right thing to do ?

if you are born in a country that apply that believe me you will never do it and if you did it you will be sure not to be seen by 4 persons its that easy

Quote:You're trying to tell me that stoning people for an action that could have lead (in not even 1% of the times) to a situation where a decision concerning the life of a foetus has to be made is the right thing to do ?

dont talk about killing a child that easy and its not about the 1% propability there are millions of babies killed because of that and again an agressive punishment is not to punish people its more like to stop them from doing ugly thing like killing babies if ther is a possibility to get a baby killed i would do anything to stop that

Quote:We don't stone people to death for attempted murder in the West, so I highly doubt you'll ever convince us that stoning people having sex outside of marriage is actually ethical.

of course i will not but you must believe that your ethics is based in what you are used to and there is a lot of things ignored in the west which is so bad like some people see that porn movies is ok for the women we see it as its sooo humilating so its not about ethics as its about the results you may get by doing something which is really very ugly i just mentioned abortion but there are many other things like aids for example believe me the results is so more bad thats why there is agressive punishment for doing this in public as you are not just doing a wrong thing but you are motivating others to do like you

Quote:From the situations I've read of, the woman is kept alive until after she gives birth, THEN the kid is made an orphan.

(pbuh)

Such wisdom in that culture.

you guys are so smart how would 4 persons see a woman having sex after she is pregnant loool