Yes, I already understood all of that. I happened to have been a nice submissive Christian wife for several years. The thing is that something commanded (regardless of who commands it) cannot be voluntary. It is either not voluntary or it is not commanded. Also, I know Christians like to live in their fake world of perfection, but in. Reality the husband often does demand this submission. As well as the church, family, friends, and religious community of the woman. If a woman chooses to submit to her husband it should be a beautiful act of trust and loyalty, not a terrifying nightmare of religious coercion. I'm not saying all Christian women who submit to their husbands have the nightmare version, I'm just saying that it is very very real. Every woman has the right to choose and if she should choose not to submit to her husband then she's still a good person and just as good of a woman as one who does submit.

(September 5, 2014 at 11:02 am)Losty Wrote: The thing is that something commanded (regardless of who commands it) cannot be voluntary.

That would be true if and only if the command necessitated the commanded action. For example, imagine you're driving and you come to a stop sign. It has been commanded that you stop. Does this mean you involuntarily stop? Certainly you could not stop if you wanted to.

(September 5, 2014 at 11:02 am)Losty Wrote: It is either not voluntary or it is not commanded.

Or it is both, it is commanded that it be voluntary.

(September 5, 2014 at 11:02 am)Losty Wrote: Also, I know Christians like to live in their fake world of perfection, but in. Reality the husband often does demand this submission. As well as the church, family, friends, and religious community of the woman.

I'm sorry that your experience with the Christian community was so negative. I've personally had experience with a Christian community that used the scripture 'submit to your [Church] leaders' as justification to coerce control over my life. It's been almost 10 years since I left, and I still haven't fully recovered.

(September 5, 2014 at 11:02 am)Losty Wrote: If a woman chooses to submit to her husband it should be a beautiful act of trust and loyalty, not a terrifying nightmare of religious coercion. I'm not saying all Christian women who submit to their husbands have the nightmare version, I'm just saying that it is very very real.

I agree.

(September 5, 2014 at 11:02 am)Losty Wrote: Every woman has the right to choose and if she should choose not to submit to her husband then she's still a good person and just as good of a woman as one who does submit.

I agree that every wife has a choice to make, namely whether or not to submit to her husband.

If we assume that disobedience to God's word is bad, how can a person choosing to follow God's word be just as 'good' as a person choosing to break it?

(September 5, 2014 at 1:28 pm)orangebox21 Wrote:

(September 5, 2014 at 11:02 am)Losty Wrote: The thing is that something commanded (regardless of who commands it) cannot be voluntary.

That would be true if and only if the command necessitated the commanded action. For example, imagine you're driving and you come to a stop sign. It has been commanded that you stop. Does this mean you involuntarily stop? Certainly you could not stop if you wanted to.

(September 5, 2014 at 11:02 am)Losty Wrote: It is either not voluntary or it is not commanded.

Or it is both, it is commanded that it be voluntary.

(September 5, 2014 at 11:02 am)Losty Wrote: Also, I know Christians like to live in their fake world of perfection, but in. Reality the husband often does demand this submission. As well as the church, family, friends, and religious community of the woman.

I'm sorry that your experience with the Christian community was so negative. I've personally had experience with a Christian community that used the scripture 'submit to your [Church] leaders' as justification to coerce control over my life. It's been almost 10 years since I left, and I still haven't fully recovered.

(September 5, 2014 at 11:02 am)Losty Wrote: If a woman chooses to submit to her husband it should be a beautiful act of trust and loyalty, not a terrifying nightmare of religious coercion. I'm not saying all Christian women who submit to their husbands have the nightmare version, I'm just saying that it is very very real.

I agree.

(September 5, 2014 at 11:02 am)Losty Wrote: Every woman has the right to choose and if she should choose not to submit to her husband then she's still a good person and just as good of a woman as one who does submit.

I agree that every wife has a choice to make, namely whether or not to submit to her husband.

If we assume that disobedience to God's word is bad, how can a person choosing to follow God's word be just as 'good' as a person choosing to break it?

I'm going to give you a choice. You can give me all your money, or I will shoot you. It's your choice. You are volunteering to give me your money.

This is the essence of your argument. I've simply replaced God with myself and submission with money. The result is the same. If you don't do said action you are disobeying God and deserve hell. If you don't do said action you get death.

(September 5, 2014 at 1:28 pm)orangebox21 Wrote:

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(September 5, 2014 at 11:02 am)Losty Wrote: The thing is that something commanded (regardless of who commands it) cannot be voluntary.

That would be true if and only if the command necessitated the commanded action. For example, imagine you're driving and you come to a stop sign. It has been commanded that you stop. Does this mean you involuntarily stop? Certainly you could not stop if you wanted to.

(September 5, 2014 at 11:02 am)Losty Wrote: It is either not voluntary or it is not commanded.

Or it is both, it is commanded that it be voluntary.

(September 5, 2014 at 11:02 am)Losty Wrote: Also, I know Christians like to live in their fake world of perfection, but in. Reality the husband often does demand this submission. As well as the church, family, friends, and religious community of the woman.

I'm sorry that your experience with the Christian community was so negative. I've personally had experience with a Christian community that used the scripture 'submit to your [Church] leaders' as justification to coerce control over my life. It's been almost 10 years since I left, and I still haven't fully recovered.

(September 5, 2014 at 11:02 am)Losty Wrote: If a woman chooses to submit to her husband it should be a beautiful act of trust and loyalty, not a terrifying nightmare of religious coercion. I'm not saying all Christian women who submit to their husbands have the nightmare version, I'm just saying that it is very very real.

I agree.

(September 5, 2014 at 11:02 am)Losty Wrote: Every woman has the right to choose and if she should choose not to submit to her husband then she's still a good person and just as good of a woman as one who does submit.

I agree that every wife has a choice to make, namely whether or not to submit to her husband.

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If we assume that disobedience to God's word is bad, how can a person choosing to follow God's word be just as 'good' as a person choosing to break it?

I am not making such a ridiculous assumption. Why would I?

(September 5, 2014 at 1:48 pm)Natachan Wrote: This is the essence of your argument.

Exactly. Unfortunately they can't (won't) see it.

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[snip]

(September 5, 2014 at 1:28 pm)orangebox21 Wrote: ...disobedience to God's word is bad...

What combination of fabrics are you currently wearing? I happen to have a huge bag of rocks handy...

I don't think the Bible teaches, in any way, that women are lesser to men. I believe that the Bible explains that God set out certain roles for men and women. The Bible does say that women have to role of raising children and men have the role as the head of tue house. I do not believe this says women are not equal to men but I believe it explains all humans, man and women are equal. The Bible does not teach women are to be looked down upon, but states men are to love their wife as they love themselve Ephesians 5:28 NIV "In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself." Jesus elevated women to a high position and often treated women with dignity even those who were outcasts in society.  (Matthew 9:20-22; Luke 7:37-50; John 4:7-27).

I believe this is also accurate in modern day society as much as it was then.

(September 5, 2014 at 2:06 pm)C4RM5 Wrote: I don't think the Bible teaches, in any way, that women are lesser to men. I believe that the Bible explains that God set out certain roles for men and women. The Bible does say that women have to role of raising children and men have the role as the head of tue house. I do not believe this says women are not equal to men but I believe it explains all humans, man and women are equal. The Bible does not teach women are to be looked down upon, but states men are to love their wife as they love themselve Ephesians 5:28 NIV "In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself." Jesus elevated women to a high position and often treated women with dignity even those who were outcasts in society.  (Matthew 9:20-22; Luke 7:37-50; John 4:7-27).

I believe this is also accurate in modern day society as much as it was then.

Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
1 Timothy 2:11-12

Also, nice name man. How's CARM doing?

You know what I believe. I believe that all people can choose for themselves what role they wish to take. I believe that whichever role they take has nothing to do with whether or not they're a "good" person.
Finally, I believe that the bible is complete garbage not even worthy of being used to wipe crap off someone's butt.

(September 5, 2014 at 2:06 pm)C4RM5 Wrote: I don't think the Bible teaches, in any way, that women are lesser to men.

It just suggests that they pretend, then.

O rly? Equal?

1 Timothy 2:12 - But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

Colossians 3:18 - Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord.

1 Corinthians 11:5 - But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with [her] head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.

Colossians 1:18 - And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all [things] he might have the preeminence.

I found PAGES of this shit just from a quick google search.