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June 13, 2010 at 1:12 pm (This post was last modified: June 13, 2010 at 1:13 pm by Paul the Human.)
(June 13, 2010 at 1:04 pm)ecolox Wrote:
(June 13, 2010 at 12:13 pm)Caecilian Wrote: God, according to christian theology, plays a similar role in the damnation of people like myself. He created the universe, with full foreknowledge of what would happen. The mechanisms that lead to eternal torment for billions are his work. Just as Hitler created the nazi death machine, so, according to christianity, god created the damnation machine. And if Hitler was directly responsible for the Holocaust, and I think that any reasonable person would say that he was, then god is directly responsible for mass damnation.
If one good soul comes out of this creation then it was all worth it, don't you think?
Certainly not. That’s insane.
(June 13, 2010 at 1:04 pm)ecolox Wrote: People like you can choose to reject God and His way. Now, are you upset that you were given that chance?
What? No. We do not believe any of it is real. The point is that you believe in something that makes no sense.
(June 13, 2010 at 1:04 pm)ecolox Wrote:
(June 13, 2010 at 12:59 pm)Minimalist Wrote: If he's crazy then you are out of your fucking mind.
Explain.
You are not making sense, is what he means. Instead of making counter arguments, you just make statements of belief. That is commonly known as preaching.
Atheist Forums Rules Wrote:4. No Preaching
To advocate, especially to urge acceptance of or compliance with your own theology, philosophy or point of view is not permitted. If you want to preach, get yourself a soapbox in hyde park and don't do it here. You are welcome to discuss your own beliefs, why you believe them, etc. Just don't expect or demand anyone to agree with them.
At best it is 'witnessing'. Either way... it is not a counter argument.
(June 13, 2010 at 12:13 pm)Caecilian Wrote: God, according to christian theology, plays a similar role in the damnation of people like myself. He created the universe, with full foreknowledge of what would happen. The mechanisms that lead to eternal torment for billions are his work. Just as Hitler created the nazi death machine, so, according to christianity, god created the damnation machine. And if Hitler was directly responsible for the Holocaust, and I think that any reasonable person would say that he was, then god is directly responsible for mass damnation.
If one good soul comes out of this creation then it was all worth it, don't you think?
Hmmm... So according to you, one good soul is worth billions of souls in eternal torment.
Other than laughing, I really don't know how to respond. Lets think...
Ah, yes, the Hitler analogy. Would one upright and pure aryan ubermensch be worth the Holocaust and WW2?
According to your 'thinking', the answer is yes.
I suspect that anyone with a shred of ethical decency would answer otherwise.
He who desires to worship God must harbor no childish illusions about the matter but bravely renounce his liberty and humanity.
Mikhail Bakunin
A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything
Friedrich Nietzsche
(June 13, 2010 at 1:04 pm)ecolox Wrote: If one good soul comes out of this creation then it was all worth it, don't you think?
Certainly not. That’s insane.
Why do you think that? One good soul is worth more than an infinite number of bad ones.
Quote:What? No. We do not believe any of it is real. The point is that you believe in something that makes no sense.
If that's your belief, so be it.
Quote:You are not making sense, is what he means. Instead of making counter arguments, you just make statements of belief. That is commonly known as preaching.
Isn't that what you're doing?
Quote:Would one upright and pure aryan ubermensch be worth the Holocaust and WW2?
Someone's race doesn't determines the value of their soul.
(June 13, 2010 at 1:04 pm)ecolox Wrote: If one good soul comes out of this creation then it was all worth it, don't you think?
Certainly not. That’s insane.
Why do you think that? One good soul is worth more than an infinite number of bad ones.
Worth more to whom? Worth? I still say it’s an insane position.
(June 13, 2010 at 2:10 pm)ecolox Wrote:
(June 13, 2010 at 1:12 pm)Paul the Human Wrote: What? No. We do not believe any of it is real. The point is that you believe in something that makes no sense.
If that's your belief, so be it.
It’s not my belief. It is yours. It makes no sense.
(June 13, 2010 at 2:10 pm)ecolox Wrote:
(June 13, 2010 at 1:12 pm)Paul the Human Wrote: You are not making sense, is what he means. Instead of making counter arguments, you just make statements of belief. That is commonly known as preaching.
Isn't that what you're doing?
Nope. I’m saying that what you claim to believe doesn’t make any sense. There is a difference.
(June 13, 2010 at 2:10 pm)ecolox Wrote:
Quote:Would one upright and pure aryan ubermensch be worth the Holocaust and WW2?
Someone's race doesn't determines the value of their soul.
This assumes that souls are real. And seriously? One good person is worth the mass murder of millions? Insane.
I am more and more convinced that at least one god exists within the imagination of every theist. The funny thing is… very rarely does it seem to be the same god. Perhaps that’s because it is only a concept… a figment of the imagination. You all seem to be able to make up exactly what you need to maintain that imaginary construct, regardless of real world input.
(June 13, 2010 at 2:10 pm)ecolox Wrote: One good soul is worth more than an infinite number of bad ones.
You really are insane. In a bad bad kind of way. In fact, you're totally depraved- and I really mean that.
Okay, you don't believe in a master race, but you clearly believe in a master religion. Christians are ubermenschen, and they're worth infinitely more than non-christian scum.
Maybe the Holocaust was okay, then? After all, its jews that we're talking about here. They rejected christ, didn't they? Worthless souls.
He who desires to worship God must harbor no childish illusions about the matter but bravely renounce his liberty and humanity.
Mikhail Bakunin
A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything
Friedrich Nietzsche
Quote:Okay, you don't believe in a master race, but you clearly believe in a master religion. Christians are ubermenschen, and they're worth infinitely more than non-christian scum.
Maybe the Holocaust was okay, then? After all, its jews that we're talking about here. They rejected christ, didn't they? Worthless souls.
Nay, I don't dare support the mass murder of heathens. I'd die that they live in freedom and hope that they would learn the true way. I do support a justice system that protects the society, of course, which may involve the death penalty for criminals too dangerous to release and too rebellious to be productive (to the society) within a prisoner work system.
(June 12, 2010 at 11:19 pm)tackattack Wrote: @Caecilian- You would draw no correlation that the synchronicity of the event of you basically asking for a sign from God , then receiving a spontaneous LSD-like flash are related? Maybe I could see getting an MRI and seeing the doctor to verify if they continue, but I think that's denial.
And what would you conclude if doctors and psychiatrists found absolutely nothing wrong with you? You'd probably still deny God had anything to do with anything because it's incompatible with your materialistic view, instead of accepting that your view could be wrong and maybe he did provide you with what you asked for.
Nah. I'm pig-headed alright, but I'm not that pig-headed. In the scenario that you give, I'd be forced to examine my assumptions. After all, if your paradigm can't explain your experience, then maybe the problem is with your paradigm. I'm not saying that I'd convert or anything- frankly I have no idea how things would pan out (how could I?). But one thing that I wouldn't do is try to deny what had happened to me. That would be dishonest, and although I have many faults, dishonesty isn't one of them.
Quote:As far as God and morality-The problem with your emotive hate parade is that the first two actually did the events themselves, the third at the most inspired them. What If I have 500 people say that you've inspired them to slaughter all of their own children , because I've told them you have some superhero powers. It turns out your superpowers are completely explainable and you didn't even want them to do what I told them you wanted. What culpability would you actually have in that scenario?
Do you think that Hitler personally killed 6 million jews? Of course he didn't. He didn't even order 6 million jews to be killed. What he did was to create a system- a death machine if you like- appointed the 'right' people, set the policy, equipped his followers with the 'right' ideology, approved the allocation of resources. He was certainly responsible for the Holocaust, but lots of other people were responsible too- on a smaller scale, of course.
God, according to christian theology, plays a similar role in the damnation of people like myself. He created the universe, with full foreknowledge of what would happen. The mechanisms that lead to eternal torment for billions are his work. Just as Hitler created the nazi death machine, so, according to christianity, god created the damnation machine. And if Hitler was directly responsible for the Holocaust, and I think that any reasonable person would say that he was, then god is directly responsible for mass damnation.
Not sure how the superhero analogy works, so I won't comment.
Self examination is always preferable to assuming delusion. Me and EvF got into a discussion on this. Question: If something extraordinary happens to you or you observe something extraordinary is your first assumption that a) it's not real until you can identify it's cause or b) It's real until you can disprove it being extraordinary?
I don't agree with your analogy and here's why:
a) OK, yes we'll agree that God created eternal torment by design just as Hitler created the Nazi death machine
b) You're still presuming that God wants you in the death camp as Hitler did.
c) You're negating any direct killings Hitler has done , which I'm sure is his fare share
d) God doesn't set the policy or the "right ideology". God didn't ask man to make the Bible, we did that on our own, therefore mankind set our own policy based off of our perception of his intentions (which was later shown to be incorrect).
e) I also don't believe God would approve of the allocation of our resources towards war and espousing hatred.
"There ought to be a term that would designate those who actually follow the teachings of Jesus, since the word 'Christian' has been largely divorced from those teachings, and so polluted by fundamentalists that it has come to connote their polar opposite: intolerance, vindictive hatred, and bigotry." -- Philip Stater, Huffington Post
always working on cleaning my windows- me regarding Johari
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