The idea of a "plan" makes the idea of a "prayer-answering relationship with God" a contradiction, doesn't it? Yet Christians seem to attach themselves to both ideas, despite the irresolvable problem the two ideas create.

This is entirely sited from http://www.godisimaginary.com/i6.htm

It's just something I'd like to touch on.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeSSwKffj...=1&index=3

Check out 6:10.

hehe I've seen this - love this guy!

That's actually a question I was trained to handle when I was a Christian.

*puts on Jesus hat* God gave us free will, and a true Christian does not pray to change God's plan, rather to listen to what God's plan may be and make his choices based on God's response. Those who plead with God to alter His plans do not understand the meaning of prayer. That is why prayer is not like a service where you can request a cancer cure or a winning lottery ticket and expect to get what you ask--God is not Santa Claus--rather, it's like talking to a supremely wise therapist who knows what is best for you and can help lead you to the right way to exercise your free will.

*takes off Jesus hat* That was horrifying. I hope to never have to wear that thing again. It's all a cop-out, but that's how I was taught to respond.

The problem behind this logic is that no one can prove that the clarity some Christians receive when they turn to prayer for advice is taken from God. In fact, there is some incredibly strong evidence to the contrary: When you pray 'correctly', all you are doing is meditating with a single thought in mind. It's not a spiritual mystery that when you clear your mind of all other thoughts, the topic you meditate on becomes much more clear. That concept is fully explained by psychology and neurology. What Christians are doing--the ones who know how to make prayer "work"--is just meditation until they come up with a solution on their own.

As for those who pray for God to take away the cancer, they are rationally and theologically confused, and are probably so desperate they would ask an inanimate object if they were told it would work. (Wait... what?! You mean people still use wishing wells and throw coins into fountains? And they still wish on stars?! Oh brother...)

It's all bullshit. I pray to Joe Pesci.

(June 15, 2010 at 12:23 pm)J.R. Braden Wrote: What Christians are doing--the ones who know how to make prayer "work"--is just meditation until they come up with a solution on their own.

That's exactly what I've been saying... and still my friends think the idea came from something else, beyond their own rationality, as I like to say.

For some reason, it's not apparent to them that THEY thought of the idea with their OWN brain.

(June 15, 2010 at 12:38 pm)Scott Anonymous Wrote: That's exactly what I've been saying... and still my friends think the idea came from something else, beyond their own rationality, as I like to say.

For some reason, it's not apparent to them that THEY thought of the idea with their OWN brain.

It's made worse by the fact I know exactly what they're feeling because I used to be one of those schmucks who was certain that I couldn't have solved a moral dilemma on my own, even though I just did.

Then, of course, they try to tell me that I never felt what they were feeling because I would still be a Christian if I ever did... but I used to say the same thing.

Fucking tragic.

Their invisible friend always tells them they are right. It makes the lunatics happy.

Yes. When being challenged with these issues, they seek help from.. you guessed it!

... and we have the whole problem again!

(June 15, 2010 at 12:23 pm)J.R. Braden Wrote:

---

That's actually a question I was trained to handle when I was a Christian.

*puts on Jesus hat* God gave us free will, and a true Christian does not pray to change God's plan, rather to listen to what God's plan may be and make his choices based on God's response. Those who plead with God to alter His plans do not understand the meaning of prayer. That is why prayer is not like a service where you can request a cancer cure or a winning lottery ticket and expect to get what you ask--God is not Santa Claus--rather, it's like talking to a supremely wise therapist who knows what is best for you and can help lead you to the right way to exercise your free will.

*takes off Jesus hat* That was horrifying. I hope to never have to wear that thing again. It's all a cop-out, but that's how I was taught to respond.

The problem behind this logic is that no one can prove that the clarity some Christians receive when they turn to prayer for advice is taken from God. In fact, there is some incredibly strong evidence to the contrary: When you pray 'correctly', all you are doing is meditating with a single thought in mind. It's not a spiritual mystery that when you clear your mind of all other thoughts, the topic you meditate on becomes much more clear. That concept is fully explained by psychology and neurology. What Christians are doing--the ones who know how to make prayer "work"--is just meditation until they come up with a solution on their own.

As for those who pray for God to take away the cancer, they are rationally and theologically confused, and are probably so desperate they would ask an inanimate object if they were told it would work. (Wait... what?! You mean people still use wishing wells and throw coins into fountains? And they still wish on stars?! Oh brother...)

It's all bullshit. I pray to Joe Pesci.

---

I would actually agree with the first part, I wasn't trained on how to respond to the question, but that's my understanding of prayer as well. I don't think that prayer is fully explained by psychology and neurology, though. Getting the "call" to do God's work by calling someone you rarely if ever do, or go somewhere you've never been, or say something you have entirely no context for saying can't be explained even by the subconscious.A lot of it can be explained by positivity or wish fulfillment, but I don't believe all.

(June 15, 2010 at 12:23 pm)J.R. Braden Wrote: That's actually a question I was trained to handle when I was a Christian.

*puts on Jesus hat* God gave us free will, and a true Christian does not pray to change God's plan, rather to listen to what God's plan may be and make his choices based on God's response. Those who plead with God to alter His plans do not understand the meaning of prayer. That is why prayer is not like a service where you can request a cancer cure or a winning lottery ticket and expect to get what you ask--God is not Santa Claus--rather, it's like talking to a supremely wise therapist who knows what is best for you and can help lead you to the right way to exercise your free will.

Why would someone need to be taught to give an answer to a question like prayer. Did they (who ever they are) not believe you knew what prayer was ? Did you not understand what prayer was ? By your answer I do not think you did or do, prayer is part of our personal relationship with God, God has made Himself personally avalible to those who have received His Son as their savior. We may ask of Him anything but that does not mean it will always be given, there are those things that God knows is not good for us and those things that are against His will and then there are those things that are just foolish to ask for. This leading us thing to exercise our free will how can that be free will. It is there for us to make choices right or wrong this is one way in which we are able to learn. Sometimes prayer can be used just to talk with God about anything no matter how simple or difficult a thing may be. Prayer is also used to praise God to thank Him and to worship Him. Prayer is avalible for some good ol' one on one with our friend our constant companion. I'm sorry some one taught you that prayer was just a religious exercise when it truly is so much more.