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RE: The Original Messages of Religion
September 19, 2014 at 7:37 am
Nonsense, nonsense, nonsense, nonsense!
Seriously, cool story bro. Tell it again?
You're proof positive that being an atheist doesn't automatically mean you have good critical thinking skills.
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RE: The Original Messages of Religion
September 19, 2014 at 8:29 am
Why on earth is abstinence a virtue? And what's remotely virtuous about the notion that we're all pre-guilty of sin?
As for the others, the virtuous components of those qualities existed prior to religion, and don't require religion to work. The religious elements are merely the shell on the nut, something to be peeled off and discarded. Meanwhile, theists pretend, and their religions assert, that the shell is actually some integral part, that in fact theists invented those virtues, and claim ownership over them.
That's the problem: religion merely dulls and dishonors good human traits, it doesn't add anything of its own. It's a parasite.
"YOU take the hard look in the mirror. You are everything that is wrong with this world. The only thing important to you, is you." - ronedee
Want to see more of my writing? Check out my (safe for work!) site, Unprotected Sects!
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RE: The Original Messages of Religion
September 19, 2014 at 11:37 am
Well, it seems to me that religion's chief common attribute is a sly, devious willingness to claim sole credit on multiple levels for anything which might be seen as good and decent, with unscrupulous disregard for the fact that these things long predated the religion in question.
The original poster, in her religion besotted defense of religion, is doing nothing more than exemplifying, yet again, why religion has no real redeeming virtues.
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RE: The Original Messages of Religion
September 19, 2014 at 12:14 pm
(September 19, 2014 at 8:29 am)Esquilax Wrote: Why on earth is abstinence a virtue? And what's remotely virtuous about the notion that we're all pre-guilty of sin?
As for the others, the virtuous components of those qualities existed prior to religion, and don't require religion to work. The religious elements are merely the shell on the nut, something to be peeled off and discarded. Meanwhile, theists pretend, and their religions assert, that the shell is actually some integral part, that in fact theists invented those virtues, and claim ownership over them.
That's the problem: religion merely dulls and dishonors good human traits, it doesn't add anything of its own. It's a parasite.
Abstinence doesn't mean refraining from just sex, it simply means to refrain from indulging in something, it could be smoking, alcohol, drugs, overeating, etc.
When I listed sacrifice as a virtue I meant the sacrifice of the self for the sake of others, and not of the sacrifice of others for the sake of the self.
Sinful concepts not such as original sin but rather gluttony, acts of unjustified violence, apathy, etc.
Yes I agree that these virtues existed long before religion, however, religion for quite a lot of people was the only source where they might observe and discuss these virtues. Granted there were some secular schools as well especially in ancient Greece, but the majority of the people did not have such privileges.
As atheists shall we not herald these virtues of humanity separating them from religion to make them more noticeable?
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RE: The Original Messages of Religion
September 19, 2014 at 12:19 pm
Sin has a religious connotation, and it would be better to use a word that more accurately portrays wrongdoing. After all, sin is disobedience to Yahweh, and doesn't have much to do with actual right or wrong. Rape is only sinful if the woman is betrothed or married. Slavery is only wrong if I'm enslaving a jewish person.
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RE: The Original Messages of Religion
September 19, 2014 at 1:04 pm
I thought the original message of religion was "obey."
"Well, evolution is a theory. It is also a fact. And facts and theories are different things, not rungs in a hierarchy of increasing certainty. Facts are the world's data. Theories are structures of ideas that explain and interpret facts. Facts don't go away when scientists debate rival theories to explain them. Einstein's theory of gravitation replaced Newton's in this century, but apples didn't suspend themselves in midair, pending the outcome. And humans evolved from ape- like ancestors whether they did so by Darwin's proposed mechanism or by some other yet to be discovered."
-Stephen Jay Gould
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RE: The Original Messages of Religion
September 19, 2014 at 1:23 pm
Isn't animism technically the first thing we would call religion? And only with the invention and application of abstract thinking did we make the leap to half-Human half-animal beings to the invisible undefinable gods. Lay it on me! I'm here to learn.
I can't remember where this verse is from, I think it got removed from canon:
"I don't hang around with mostly men because I'm gay. It's because men are better than women. Better trained, better equipped...better. Just better! I'm not gay."
For context, this is the previous verse:
"Hi Jesus" -robvalue
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RE: The Original Messages of Religion
September 19, 2014 at 1:28 pm
(September 19, 2014 at 12:14 pm)Celestine Wrote: Abstinence doesn't mean refraining from just sex, it simply means to refrain from indulging in something, it could be smoking, alcohol, drugs, overeating, etc.
What about abstaining from charity? Would that be a virtue? What about abstaining from self-sacrifice? What about abstaining from playing with your kids? Or are you saying that abstinence is only a virtue when people abstain from things you don't value?
And why should you abstain from sex, or alcohol, or drugs, or overeating? Why not, instead, extol the virtue of moderation?
After all, alcohol has known positive health effects when used in moderation (it can help acidify urine for those afflicted with certain types of kidney stone), in addition to the known negative effects of overuse. Sex has known positive effects on mental health, physical health, and the health of relationships, as well as the known negatives effects of STD transmission. The psychologically negative effects associated with sex are just that: psychological. Overeating is perfectly fine when you do it infrequently (Thanksgiving dinner, Superbowl parties, pie eating contests, etc.) but, yes, is unhealthy if one persists in the activity regularly.
Why is abstinence (which, after all, means restraining oneself from doing or enjoying something) better than teaching people to have healthy attitudes about these activities or, when frequent indulgence is indeed harmful, advocate for moderation?
Quote:Yes I agree that these virtues existed long before religion, however, religion for quite a lot of people was the only source where they might observe and discuss these virtues.
If they existed long before religion, then why are you bootstrapping them to religion in your defense of them? Why not advocate for them for their own sake?
Quote:As atheists shall we not herald these virtues of humanity separating them from religion to make them more noticeable?
Well, first you're going to have to demonstrate that ALL of your listed virtues are, indeed, virtues.
Teenaged X-Files obsession + Bermuda Triangle episode + Self-led school research project = Atheist.
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RE: The Original Messages of Religion
September 19, 2014 at 3:23 pm
As a kid I used to read stories about talking animals going on various adventures, and though they are not realistic, they still taught some stuff like how stealing is bad, and how we should be wary of strangers e.t.c. The thing is, though these stories contained some good morals, it was up to me to understand them and figure out if and how they apply in my real life. I was able to do that because those books focused on the morals, instead of the existence of those talking animals. When it comes comes to religion, it solely focuses on glorifying the deity of that religion instead of the morals.
Morality is a human construct and they vary for each person, and they change over time. Something as unchanging as religion has no hope of guiding morality. And though religious books do seem to contain some moral teachings, it is left to us to interpret them and decide which of them is actually moral, which is a really hard thing to do when your brain is already exhausted from trying to find these moral values hidden among all the contradictory and immoral concepts also found in the same book.
At the end of it all, it is we who decide what is moral or immoral, what we will follow in our lives and what we will ignore, so why would we need religion? just to introduce us to the concept which we already know?
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RE: The Original Messages of Religion
September 19, 2014 at 6:30 pm
(September 19, 2014 at 12:14 pm)Celestine Wrote: Abstinence doesn't mean refraining from just sex, it simply means to refrain from indulging in something, it could be smoking, alcohol, drugs, overeating, etc. I don't drink alcohol, smoke nor do drugs but I do it because I don't find any pleasure in it not because I think abstinence is a good thing. It's my choice and only mine that's why I won't support any tradition or costume that neither forbids nor encourages it.
(September 19, 2014 at 12:14 pm)Celestine Wrote: Sinful concepts not such as original sin but rather gluttony, acts of unjustified violence, apathy, etc. So no more "all the lays you can eat" each friday night?….
Naha...Not in my watch lady!
(September 19, 2014 at 12:14 pm)Celestine Wrote: Yes I agree that these virtues existed long before religion, however, religion for quite a lot of people was the only source where they might observe and discuss these virtues. You do realize that there wed atheist in the ancient times as well right?
(September 19, 2014 at 12:14 pm)Celestine Wrote: Granted there were some secular schools as well especially in ancient Greece, but the majority of the people did not have such privileges. Just because you have no choice that to receive an education in a religious school that doesn't automatically makes you a supporter of religion.
(September 19, 2014 at 12:14 pm)Celestine Wrote: As atheists shall we not herald these virtues of humanity separating them from religion to make them more noticeable? I don't want to sound rude or offend you since you sound like a nice person but I gotta ask:
Separating the good values from religion to make them more noticeable?WHAT THE HELL DO YOU THINK THAT WE ATHEISTS HAVE BEEN DOING ALL THIS TIME!! HAVEN'T YOU'VE BEEN WATCHING?!
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