(September 26, 2014 at 11:59 am)C4RM5 Wrote: His was still a sacrafice as he died for the sin of men.

Remember to sin every day, or jesus died for nothing.

(September 29, 2014 at 9:06 am)Rogue Wrote: It's okay to be what ever you want except a jerk.

Translation:

(September 29, 2014 at 9:06 am)Rogue Wrote: It's okay to be what ever you want except a jerk. That's my right, my right alone. Mine. Because I'm special. SPECIAL. Serially. Ask my mom.

(September 22, 2014 at 11:28 am)Rogue Wrote: I believe Jesus was a man that laid his life down freely for the good of his people. This is a ultimate example of LOVE.

No Resurrection=LOVE
Resurrection=nothing

If Jesus was God then he was the same God that used incest to populate the world, drowned millions of innocent babies and children in the flood. The same vain and cruel God that has caused so much death and prejudice.

I believe Jesus died to STOP religion not to start a new one!

The bible does say God hates Religion.

Amos 5:16-23

23. Away with the noise of your songs!
I will not listen to the music of your harps.

I don't believe God has ever spoken to anyone. Some men believed God was cruel and other men believed God was love. This is why the bible is so contradictory.

Belief is not knowledge! Beliefs are a reflection of the believer!

To believe in nothing; that's a negative.

I believe Jesus was God and Man. The same God of infinite abounding love, and terribly humbling judgment. The same God that sent a flood to rid us of abominations of beastiality and hopelessly hateful mankind.

Without the resurrection there is no Jesus. Even Jesus himself knew that he would have to rise again in order for his sacrifice to be worth anything.

His sacrifice was to end legalism, and fulfill the law of the torah so that we were no longer slaves to the law.

Also if you read the chapters before Amos 5 you'll find that it wasn't "religion" but "religiousity" aka "mechanicism" aka being inauthentic or just going through the motions while your heart is far from Him.

And the beautiful thing about belief is that it is unavoidable and you can't simply "suspend" belief because if you understand anything at all to be true, there is an intrinsic belief that comes with that. You can't accept something as true and not believe it simultaneously.

(October 1, 2014 at 8:33 am)Hezekiah Wrote: I believe Jesus was God and Man.

You can't accept something as true and not believe it simultaneously.

Yet you can't also claim to care about reason (as a reasonable person ought) when you openly confess that you believe two obviously contradictory and self-refuting notions are simultaneously true. It's logically impossible for Jesus to have been at the same time God and man, just as it's impossible for me to draw a square that is rounded or a circle with acute angles.

(October 1, 2014 at 8:41 am)Pickup_shonuff Wrote:

(October 1, 2014 at 8:33 am)Hezekiah Wrote: I believe Jesus was God and Man.

You can't accept something as true and not believe it simultaneously.

Yet you can't also claim to care about reason (as a reasonable person ought) when you openly confess that you believe two obviously contradictory and self-refuting notions are simultaneously true. It's logically impossible for Jesus to have been at the same time God and man, just as it's impossible for me to draw a square that is rounded or a circle with acute angles.

The issue there is that I both accept it as true AND believe it. So in that sense I'm not contradicting my personal belief. (Notice: "my personal belief")

(October 1, 2014 at 8:33 am)Hezekiah Wrote: Without the resurrection there is no Jesus. Even Jesus himself knew that he would have to rise again in order for his sacrifice to be worth anything.

His sacrifice was to end legalism, and fulfill the law of the torah so that we were no longer slaves to the law.

Couldn't YHWH have just ended that legalism if he wanted to? The sacrifice was unnecessary in the first place.

(October 1, 2014 at 8:47 am)Hezekiah Wrote: The issue there is that I both accept it as true AND believe it. So in that sense I'm not contradicting my personal belief. (Notice: "my personal belief")

That's fine. I'm merely pointing out that it would be contradictory to both declare your "personal belief" in a patently illogical or self-refuting notion AND claim to be reasonable with regards to your "personal belief."

Also, Jesus fulfiled the law of the torah so we're no longer slaves to the law? So...the rules of the OT don't apply to us anymore?

(October 1, 2014 at 9:13 am)RobbyPants Wrote:

(October 1, 2014 at 8:33 am)Hezekiah Wrote: Without the resurrection there is no Jesus. Even Jesus himself knew that he would have to rise again in order for his sacrifice to be worth anything.

His sacrifice was to end legalism, and fulfill the law of the torah so that we were no longer slaves to the law.

Couldn't YHWH have just ended that legalism if he wanted to? The sacrifice was unnecessary in the first place.

Sure, but who knows what "alternatives" could have been or whether there couldn't have been. What makes the fact that YHWH takes the form of a man and lives a human life so necessary, is because he can show us and teach us in actions, as well as mark human experience as sacred and a blessing since God was man. Also it was humans who were in debt and bound by the law and death, so you need a human to conquer the law and death in order for humans to be free.

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(October 1, 2014 at 9:17 am)Pickup_shonuff Wrote:

(October 1, 2014 at 8:47 am)Hezekiah Wrote: The issue there is that I both accept it as true AND believe it. So in that sense I'm not contradicting my personal belief. (Notice: "my personal belief")

That's fine. I'm merely pointing out that it would be contradictory to both declare your "personal belief" in a patently illogical or self-refuting notion AND claim to be reasonable with regards to your "personal belief."

Ah. Gotchya. Never claimed to be reasonable in regards to my personal beliefs

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(October 1, 2014 at 9:19 am)FatAndFaithless Wrote: Also, Jesus fulfiled the law of the torah so we're no longer slaves to the law? So...the rules of the OT don't apply to us anymore?

Nope! That's what free means!
The new law is written on our hearts now. Aka "Love"

(October 1, 2014 at 9:26 am)Hezekiah Wrote: Sure, but who knows what "alternatives" could have been or whether there couldn't have been.

An infinitely powerful god has an infinite number of options. Anything that happens does so because he wants it to, by definition.

(October 1, 2014 at 9:26 am)Hezekiah Wrote: What makes the fact that YHWH takes the form of a man and lives a human life so necessary, is because he can show us and teach us in actions, as well as mark human experience as sacred and a blessing since God was man.

Well, it probably wasn't the best course of action, made evident by how ineffective it was. So far, God's plan has netted him about one third of the population of the world as believers (and that's assuming you count everyone who identifies as Christian and don't start excluding all the "wrong" sects).

You would think if God's goal was to "show and teach us", he would have both

• Done so throughout the globe during all times, as opposed to a three year ministry on an area on the globe the size of a dime.
  
• Picked a more convincing method that couldn't be dismissed by simply asking "Yabut do you have any evidence for your claims?"
  

(October 1, 2014 at 9:26 am)Hezekiah Wrote: Also it was humans who were in debt and bound by the law and death, so you need a human to conquer the law and death in order for humans to be free.

Also, he could have simply forgiven the debt; the same way Jesus told us to in numerous parables. Why can't God follow his own advice?

The fact that he sends one third of himself to be sacrificed to appease a different third of himself to pay a debt he instituted, all while telling us to forgive debts to each other looks really... weird, to say the least.