Rogue, thats an interesting take on Christianity. One I've never heard before. Serious props for opening your mind to possible alternative explanations. I think you are one step closer. For me, I had to reject the traditional Christian God finding biblical support for the Calvinist predestination argument. That was my step closer to dealing with reality. The more you logically search and understand the bible, the more you realize that there are some serious moral flaws in the design...unless of course you shut off your logic and just have "blind (i.e. ignorant) faith". Just respect yourself more than that. If that doesn't work, watch darkmatter2525 on you tube. He makes some interesting and comical arguments for some of the most blatant logical problems with the bible. Keep searching with an open mind for truth.

Sorry Rogue, I don't see spirituality as offering anything "more moral" - and is the bar really that low, that beating religion gets you on the podium? Talk about a rigged race...... What's immoral about atheism, or, less moral - relative to spirituality?

(October 1, 2014 at 9:36 pm)Rhythm Wrote:

(October 1, 2014 at 9:32 pm)Hezekiah Wrote: No its ok, thank you for respectfully asking.

You're asking (correct me if I'm wrong) isn't it wiser to hinge all of those wonderful things I mentioned on something that requires no faith?

I would say no it's not wiser. Because I've already tried doing that and I realized that I am the kind of person that has to put faith in something in order for me to even derive purpose and/or passion from it.

I recall you saying something...just a bit ago, to the effect of "even if there was no god I would still be a christian" - so....that sort of rubs against the appraissal of self you've offered here.

I'm not sure what you mean by "appraissal of self". I wasn't trying to "praise" myself, I was simply stating that I learned that I am the kind of person who needs to put faith in something in order for me to even derive purpose and/or passion from it. This is in fact the reason why I say, even if there was no god I would still be a Christian.

Quote:Even with gnosis - knowledge that there was no god - you'd still be doing the things you're doing. You understand that this creates a nonsensical scenario, yes? You can;t know that there isn't a god and yet have faith that there is. If you could be the person you are with such knowledge...it clearly isn't the faith doing you any favors. Seems to me it;s more like you think the articles of this faith stand on their own merits (no god required) for you, even if only out of practicality.

I would agree with this to a degree, because while I do in fact think the "articles of this faith stand on their own merits" in order for me to have faith in these articles, which are of faith, I must omit the "(no god required)" and believe there is a God for these "articles" to even exist.

Quote:Also what "nasty shit" did I say earlier? (I assume by that you mean hateful or vulgar words) I only recall ever answering your questions about what brought me to belive in God.

The loss of this, the loss of that, depression, isolation, etc. Hmn, maybe I'm misremembering?

-nope....nope, that was you.
[/quote]

(October 1, 2014 at 8:16 am)Pickup_shonuff Wrote:

(September 29, 2014 at 9:06 am)Rogue Wrote: It's okay to be what ever you want except a jerk.

Translation:

(September 29, 2014 at 9:06 am)Rogue Wrote: It's okay to be what ever you want except a jerk. That's my right, my right alone. Mine. Because I'm special. SPECIAL. Serially. Ask my mom.

O I can't believe how low you will go. You know I didn't say that.
You're just digging a ditch mister Pick_shonuff.

Misquoting me is unacceptable. It's against the rules here. Rules don't matter to you do they? How absolutely pathetic, and that's being nice.

You all started this quarrel.

I have followed the tips "how to talk to an atheist" immaculately. I only had what, 3-4 simple little requests and that's double standards.

This may be part of a study of atheism. If it is you're not getting good publicity.

I may be taking notes comparing how quick a spiritual person gets kicked out of Christian websites compared to atheist websites. So far it's neck to neck.

I was really hoping this website would bring the concept of atheism as harmless, but at this time I can not honestly say that. You will not find anything harmful about my POV. Nope not-ta. Ain't gonna happen. I'm cool as a cucumber.

(October 1, 2014 at 9:54 pm)Hezekiah Wrote: I'm not sure what you mean by "appraissal of self". I wasn't trying to "praise" myself, I was simply stating that I learned that I am the kind of person who needs to put faith in something in order for me to even derive purpose and/or passion from it. This is in fact the reason why I say, even if there was no god I would still be a Christian.

Again, this creates a nonsensical scenario. You would not have faith-and yet...... An appraisal is an assessment. You've repeated here, why I think that your assessment of yourself is inaccurate.

Quote:I would agree with this to a degree, because while I do in fact think the "articles of this faith stand on their own merits" in order for me to have faith in these articles, which are of faith, I must omit the "(no god required)" and believe there is a God for these "articles" to even exist.

Why, does Odin have to exist for the Havamal to exist? Articles of faith are, truly and completely- independent of the existence of the deity which they may be built around. Sure, you may no longer say "Oh, I have to follow the ten commandments because god says so and might makes right" - but you could indeed say "Oh, well, I like the ten commandments, I think they're a good idea - Imma run with that".

(October 1, 2014 at 9:55 pm)Rogue Wrote: This may be part of a study of atheism. If it is you're not getting good publicity.

I may be taking notes comparing how quick a spiritual person gets kicked out of Christian websites compared to atheist websites. So far it's neck to neck.

Which would likely get you banned. Generally speaking, when you want to run a little social experiment....best to divulge that info so that people can decide whether or not they want to participate.

(October 1, 2014 at 10:02 pm)Rhythm Wrote:

(October 1, 2014 at 9:55 pm)Rogue Wrote: This may be part of a study of atheism. If it is you're not getting good publicity.

I may be taking notes comparing how quick a spiritual person gets kicked out of Christian websites compared to atheist websites. So far it's neck to neck.

Which would likely get you banned. Generally speaking, when you want to run a little social experiment....best to divulge that info so that people can decide whether or not they want to participate.

This. Running "social experiments" on unwitting members is contrary to the purpose of this forum, and IMO tantamount to trolling.

(October 1, 2014 at 9:55 pm)Rogue Wrote: Misquoting me is unacceptable. It's against the rules here. Rules don't matter to you do they? How absolutely pathetic, and that's being nice.

I quoted you correctly, and then added what you failed to include given the churlish nature of everything else you have said towards me. In other words, in between your reprisals and sermons on how atheists act or ought to act, you've only proven yourself to be both the idiot and the ass, and worse, oblivious to it.

(October 1, 2014 at 9:59 pm)Rhythm Wrote:

(October 1, 2014 at 9:54 pm)Hezekiah Wrote: I'm not sure what you mean by "appraissal of self". I wasn't trying to "praise" myself, I was simply stating that I learned that I am the kind of person who needs to put faith in something in order for me to even derive purpose and/or passion from it. This is in fact the reason why I say, even if there was no god I would still be a Christian.

Again, this creates a nonsensical scenario. You would not have faith-and yet...... An appraisal is an assessment. You've repeated here, why I think that your assessment of yourself is inaccurate.

Quote:I would agree with this to a degree, because while I do in fact think the "articles of this faith stand on their own merits" in order for me to have faith in these articles, which are of faith, I must omit the "(no god required)" and believe there is a God for these "articles" to even exist.

Why, does Odin have to exist for the Havamal to exist? Articles of faith are, truly and completely- independent of the existence of the deity which they may be built around. Sure, you may no longer say "Oh, I have to follow the ten commandments because god says so and might makes right" - but you could indeed say "Oh, well, I like the ten commandments, I think they're a good idea - Imma run with that".

I see. Well I was assuming faith and religion still exist in the world if god does not exist (which happens to be the case today). And in that case, I would choice faith and relgion. I'm not being inaccurate in my assesment of myself, I'm simply saying from my perspective this is what I would do.

And in Christianity, God has to exist in order for faith to exist. If you don't have faith in God then you're not a Christian. That's all I'm saying.

Perhaps an even more worrisome position. Whether or not it's true means little to you - what it does for you means everything. Personally, I'm not really interested in a comforting lie - and I certainly couldn't be religious about it. In Asatru, Odin has to exist for faith to exist (is it easier to spot the problem when another faith is referenced?). It's possible to have faith in a god that isn't there. There is no such god requirement for faith, even in christianity.