(October 1, 2014 at 10:36 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Perhaps an even more worrisome position. Whether or not it's true means little to you - what it does for you means everything. In Asatru, Odin has to exist for faith to exist (is it easier to spot the problem when another faith is referenced?).

I would argue that I do believe it's true to me. And it means everything to me that it is true. I just know how to imagine if there is no God (that is to assume the world is exactly the same as it is right now, minus god. And I would still believe there is a god). Unless there is irrevocable evidence that God doesn't exist, then I would be forced to consider otherwise.

Also, if that is how Asatru works, then that is what one must belive in order to practice and define themselves by it. No, unfortunately I don't spot the problem you're trying to communicate there.

To add to what Rhythm said, I wonder if Hezekiah would continue trying to persuade others of faith and religion--given his knowledge that they're false but still retaining them due to personal preference--and if so, we can conclude that such a person is a flat out liar with little regard for integrity and probably completely lacking any sense of moral conviction (if you, however, state that you would not seek to persuade others of your cherished but false ideas, then by all means, carry on however you'd like).

(October 1, 2014 at 10:49 pm)Pickup_shonuff Wrote: To add to what Rhythm said, I wonder if Hezekiah would continue trying to persuade others of faith and religion--given his knowledge that they're false but still retaining them due to personal preference--and if so, we can conclude that such a person is a flat out liar with little regard for integrity and probably complete absence moral conviction (if you, however, state that you would not seek to persuade others of your cherished but false ideas, then by all means, carry on however you'd like).

I didn't even want to have this conversatioin. I said earlier:

Quote:I don't want to open that discussion up and derail the thread, so I'll leave the topic alone from here on out.

And I was met by:

Quote:Well, we're talking about this now, so go on. Threads deviate all the time.

Quote:Gotta admit, I'm extremely curious. Whats scary about the idea of "no god"?

Was it wrong for me to answer their questions? And should I have just ignored them instead?

(October 1, 2014 at 10:48 pm)Hezekiah Wrote: I would argue that I do believe it's true to me. And it means everything to me that it is true.

No, it doesn't, see below. There's clearly a difference between what we believe and what is true.

Quote: I just know how to imagine if there is no God (that is to assume the world is exactly the same as it is right now, minus god. And I would still believe there is a god). Unless there is irrevocable evidence that God doesn't exist, then I would be forced to consider otherwise.

No you wouldn't, it doesn't matter. You'd still choose faith and religion.

Quote:Also, if that is how Asatru works, then that is what one must belive in order to practice and define themselves by it. No, unfortunately I don't spot the problem you're trying to communicate there.

Do you accept that the god Odin exists?

(September 22, 2014 at 11:28 am)Rogue Wrote: The bible does say God hates Religion.

Amos 5:16-23

23. Away with the noise of your songs!
I will not listen to the music of your harps.

(October 1, 2014 at 8:33 am)Hezekiah Wrote: I believe Jesus was God and Man. The same God of infinite abounding love, and terribly humbling judgment. The same God that sent a flood to rid us of abominations of beastiality and hopelessly hateful mankind.

1.The flood was not moral, little babies and children drowned in that flood. In fact your bible god told Abraham it would never destroy us with water again after Abraham scolded god; ya know? I think that made your god feel guilty. You can believe in a wrathful god if you chose, but that's not LOVE.

2.God + man is what a deity is. It just don't make sense. That makes John 3:16 controversial to me because it clearly says God gave his son, not himself. The story has no feeling to it If it said, 'God gave God because God Loves us'. By the By many Christians have perished w/o a glimpse of life after death. It doesn't say you die first it says everlasting life. That means NOT DYING. That happens a lot.

3.If the flood was meant to wash away abominations; it clearly did not work so bible god failed and killed all those babies and children for nothing.

4.It would take more than a crucifixion to atone for all that blood. Those babies did not get to come back to life in three measly days. They stayed dead and their lives sacrificed in vain.

(October 1, 2014 at 8:33 am)Hezekiah Wrote: Without the resurrection there is no Jesus. Even Jesus himself knew that he would have to rise again in order for his sacrifice to be worth anything.

That's just not a reasonable sentence. There could be Jesus w/o the resurrection. If the bible is a true story god should have made us the way god wanted. Your story defines your god as vain, making humans to worship it. That's as vain as it gets.

So, You have shown us so far a wrathful, baby murdering, vain god. No wonder the sheep are leaving the flock. Cruel god/s appall me, really they do. Whether it's bible god, Zeus or Odin, I detest cruel and vain god/s.

(October 1, 2014 at 8:33 am)Hezekiah Wrote: His sacrifice was to end legalism, and fulfill the law of the torah so that we were no longer slaves to the law.

How heroic for a human to take it upon himself to be the Messiah. First of all I think greedy men made slaves to the law not any kind of intelligent thing/god/s that would create this remarkable but challenging place. Everything Jesus condemned the Pharisees and Sadducees for is almost a mirror image of the church. Not because any god/s made it so but because humans made it so. It's all right there in the sermon on the mount. It's written in red all over the NT but somehow churches just ignore it so blatantly, over the top, really. Jesus died because religious beliefs called him a blasphemer and sentenced him to death demonstrating perfectly how DANGEROUS RELIGION WAS AND STILL IS. I mean the crowd would rather have Barabbus, a thief, than a gentleman who has taught love and kindness in a world full of violence.

Paul and Peter were possibly motivated by greed.

(October 1, 2014 at 8:33 am)Hezekiah Wrote: Also if you read the chapters before Amos 5 you'll find that it wasn't "religion" but "religiousity" aka "mechanicism" aka being inauthentic or just going through the motions while your heart is far from Him.

Nope that's not what it says. Read it again. It's plainly saying religion repulses God, God can not bare it.

(October 1, 2014 at 8:33 am)Hezekiah Wrote: And the beautiful thing about belief is that it is unavoidable and you can't simply "suspend" belief because if you understand anything at all to be true, there is an intrinsic belief that comes with that.

You can't accept something as true and not believe it simultaneously.

How is belief unavoidable?

I know but having doubts and questions is how we must learn from that intelligent creator. 1 on 1. Spiritually.

(October 1, 2014 at 10:55 pm)Rhythm Wrote:

(October 1, 2014 at 10:48 pm)Hezekiah Wrote: I would argue that I do believe it's true to me. And it means everything to me that it is true.

No, it doesn't, see below. There's clearly a difference between what we believe and what is true.

I agree there is a difference between what I believe and what is true. But I believe that it is true for me.

Quote:

Quote:Unless there is irrevocable evidence that God doesn't exist, then I would be forced to consider otherwise.

No you wouldn't, it doesn't matter. You'd still choose faith and religion.

That was a promise, not a suggestion.

Quote:

Quote:Also, if that is how Asatru works, then that is what one must belive in order to practice and define themselves by it. No, unfortunately I don't spot the problem you're trying to communicate there.

Do you accept that the god Odin exists?

I don't know much about the Odin god to say accurately. But assuming it's nothing like the Christian God I'd answer, no.

Yeah...Odin was cool compared to that pussy, jesus.

(October 1, 2014 at 11:12 pm)Minimalist Wrote: Yeah...Odin was cool compared to that pussy, jesus.

(October 1, 2014 at 11:11 pm)Hezekiah Wrote: I agree there is a difference between what I believe and what is true. But I believe that it is true for me.

Truth is not a vanity plate. There is no list of what is true with your name on it, just for you. You're equivocating, perhaps unintentionally, between various usages of the word.

Quote:That was a promise, not a suggestion.

Rephrase? I'm not doubting your sincerity. Merely explaining that if you are sincere in the one claim, the other cannot simultaneously be true. When people give you shit about integrity - this is is the sort of thing they are referring to Hez. People are assuming that you're smart enough to have realized this without any help - but just in case, when you've gone down this route, people have taken the time to lay it out for you. -And yet you persist......

Quote:I don't know much about the Odin god to say accurately. But assuming it's nothing like the Christian God I'd answer, no.

Then the existence of a god is not a requirement for faith. There are people who do have faith in Odin. In the same way, the existence of god is not required for your faith. Not in Asatru, not in christianity, and not - specifically, to you.

(October 1, 2014 at 11:09 pm)Rogue Wrote:

(September 22, 2014 at 11:28 am)Rogue Wrote: The bible does say God hates Religion.

Amos 5:16-23

23. Away with the noise of your songs!
I will not listen to the music of your harps.

(October 1, 2014 at 8:33 am)Hezekiah Wrote: I believe Jesus was God and Man. The same God of infinite abounding love, and terribly humbling judgment. The same God that sent a flood to rid us of abominations of beastiality and hopelessly hateful mankind.

1.The flood was not moral, little babies and children drowned in that flood. In fact your bible god told Abraham it would never destroy us with water again after Abraham scolded god; ya know? I think that made your god feel guilty. You can believe in a wrathful god if you chose, but that's not LOVE.

2.God + man is what a deity is. It just don't make sense. That makes John 3:16 controversial to me because it clearly says God gave his son, not himself. The story has no feeling to it If it said, 'God gave God because God Loves us'. By the By many Christians have perished w/o a glimpse of life after death. It doesn't say you die first it says everlasting life. That means NOT DYING. That happens a lot.

3.If the flood was meant to wash away abominations; it clearly did not work so bible god failed and killed all those babies and children for nothing.

4.It would take more than a crucifixion to atone for all that blood. Those babies did not get to come back to life in three measly days. They stayed dead and their lives sacrificed in vain.

(October 1, 2014 at 8:33 am)Hezekiah Wrote: Without the resurrection there is no Jesus. Even Jesus himself knew that he would have to rise again in order for his sacrifice to be worth anything.

That's just not a reasonable sentence. There could be Jesus w/o the resurrection. If the bible is a true story god should have made us the way god wanted. Your story defines your god as vain, making humans to worship it. That's as vain as it gets.

So, You have shown us so far a wrathful, baby murdering, vain god. No wonder the sheep are leaving the flock. Cruel god/s appall me, really they do. Whether it's bible god, Zeus or Odin, I detest cruel and vain god/s.

(October 1, 2014 at 8:33 am)Hezekiah Wrote: His sacrifice was to end legalism, and fulfill the law of the torah so that we were no longer slaves to the law.

How heroic for a human to take it upon himself to be the Messiah. First of all I think greedy men made slaves to the law not any kind of intelligent thing/god/s that would create this remarkable but challenging place. Everything Jesus condemned the Pharisees and Sadducees for is almost a mirror image of the church. Not because any god/s made it so but because humans made it so. It's all right there in the sermon on the mount. It's written in red all over the NT but somehow churches just ignore it so blatantly, over the top, really. Jesus died because religious beliefs called him a blasphemer and sentenced him to death demonstrating perfectly how DANGEROUS RELIGION WAS AND STILL IS. I mean the crowd would rather have Barabbus, a thief, than a gentleman who has taught love and kindness in a world full of violence.

Paul and Peter were possibly motivated by greed.

(October 1, 2014 at 8:33 am)Hezekiah Wrote: Also if you read the chapters before Amos 5 you'll find that it wasn't "religion" but "religiousity" aka "mechanicism" aka being inauthentic or just going through the motions while your heart is far from Him.

Nope that's not what it says. Read it again. It's plainly saying religion repulses God, God can not bare it.

(October 1, 2014 at 8:33 am)Hezekiah Wrote: And the beautiful thing about belief is that it is unavoidable and you can't simply "suspend" belief because if you understand anything at all to be true, there is an intrinsic belief that comes with that.

You can't accept something as true and not believe it simultaneously.

How is belief unavoidable?

I know but having doubts and questions is how we must learn from that intelligent creator. 1 on 1. Spiritually.

I agree, doubts and questions is definitely how we must learn. Christianity aside, I personally believe that if God, Tao, Allah, whatever intelligent creator brought about this reality existed he had to be perfect, all-powerfull, and all-knowing in order to do so. I admit, I don't understand his ways, but if I'm assuming He is truly all-powerful, all-knowing, perfect and good, then one would assume that is my own perspective of the situation that is wrong.

And simply put, Jesus proclaimed that he is "I Am" and that "I and the Father are One". That's why one would attribute Jesus to being human and God. He also prophezied His own death and resurrection, and if one were to assume that Jesus wasn't a liar, one would have to believe what he said about resurrecting.