(October 5, 2014 at 4:20 pm)C4RM5 Wrote: Why are you changing topics, but no not like Germany, the example I talk about is where the person leaves their nation and joins Israel.

And of course you don't see that that is not actually a free choice. It is coercion.

Why do you delusional nutters come here?

(October 5, 2014 at 12:22 pm)Retrolord Wrote: 3) the idea of atheism at birth is debatable but I kind of agree with it. But in my case I came to god because of science. I wondered why water- a liquid made exclusively of hydrogen and oxygen is the way it is; why only molecules of H2 and O2 were drinkable and unique among all substances. Why water hosted the first living things on earth. An accident that hydrogen and oxygen were meant to join and host microorganisms? I'd differ

I think you are looking at this wrong.

Lets suppose water is necessary to life (it probably is). Why does that mean it's designed by a god? Every other chemical in the universe is unique among the chemicals in one way or another. Many of them are necessary to life on earth as it now exists either directly or because they are involved in creating our atmosphere or creating solar energy. Life is formed from and uses the materials at hand. It would be odd if it used materials not available.

Saying that the materials were specially created to sustain life is like saying that trees were designed to become lumber and food for deer, or that they were designed to fuel forest fires. People, deer, and fire, all use them but they weren't made for that purpose. But deer and people took advantage of them.

Or look at it this way. My home is a perfect environment for carpenter ants. It has water, habitable materials, and food. Ants like it. But I sure didn't design it for ants. But by your logic the ants could argue it was designed for them by god.

Quote:4) complex organs in organisms. A leopard's eye, a cheetahs legs, the human brain computing thousands of stimuli and the functionality of organs. Evolution? Yes. But such intelligence in their designs.

What you are doing here is answering the question how does evolution occur with god. It's a null answer. It tells you nothing more about how life evolved than "just because." And it supposes something much more complex than the question, i.e. a god complex and powerful enough to direct evolution. All of which is silly because there is an adequate much simpler answer: natural selection.

More importantly, I don't think that these are really your reasons for believing in god. I think they're are explanations you make to others to explain your belief. These arguments came after belief not before.

What a delightfully genocidal turn this thread has taken. It must take a very special mind to consider the wholesale slaughter of entire populations and label it as good and merciful. Either one that is blind to the consequences of the stories it's defending, or else an alternative too terrible to contemplate.

My parents were never into that mumbo jumbo, so I was never victim to such brainwash. I never had to endure any of the bs.

(October 5, 2014 at 4:14 pm)genkaus Wrote:

(October 5, 2014 at 4:04 pm)bladevalant546 Wrote: Fair question, however many of the verses of Jesus permitting children to come to him, to turning the other cheek, or helping the poor and those less fortunate. Also, anyone tries to bring up the verses about the peace and bringing a sword. Jesus, like most "philosophers" spoke in parables that are usually meaning something beyond its literal semantic meaning. This is rather obvious as it is common in other religions too.

I am not advocating the belief, I just rather have informed discussions.

So, the parts you find nice are to be taken as literal and the ones you don't are considered parables that go beyond literal meaning?

The belief you are advocating here is that NT is against child slaughter - and I'm still not seeing it.

I personally do not care, but i have studied the bible and it language/culture for majority of my life. Including the greek versions, and archaeological correlation. I want to point out the NT does not condone slaughter, it is rather obvious.

Concerning nick-picking, i personally know the OT is riddled with genocide and war crimes. Having said that, you learn in literature class the difference between something as a metaphor or to take something literal. Sadly alot of people do not understand this,which then leads to some bad things. IT is still all bunk, but gotta know how to read bunk.

Quote:There is a big difference between sacraficing babys and God on earth who willingly died for the sins of man.

There certainly is. The former occasionally happened. The latter never did.

(October 5, 2014 at 6:37 pm)bladevalant546 Wrote: Concerning nick-picking, i personally know the OT is riddled with genocide and war crimes. Having said that, you learn in literature class the difference between something as a metaphor or to take something literal. Sadly alot of people do not understand this,which then leads to some bad things. IT is still all bunk, but gotta know how to read bunk.

Nit picking.

^^^haha Sometimes it's too good to pass up.

Welcome OP

(October 5, 2014 at 10:32 am)Retrolord Wrote: I'm going to convert to Catholicism from Hinduism next year. I joined to see what made people atheists.

Hello and I'm the resident very-recent ex-Anglican.

I'm interested as to why you say you are "going to convert" next year? You do not have a belief in your heart at present?

Quote:For starters I'd like to ask you what did you dislike about Christianity (apart from the practitioners).

While the NT is fairly solid on a moral basis, the OT is horrific. Jehovah said men can divorce their wives but women could not divorce their husbands (Deut 24:1). Furthermore I had doubts about the Exodus and have found that archaeologists have a very real opinion that it did not happen at all after searching for archaeological evidence for around 200 years (and there is evidence, but all the evidence contradicts the Bible and none of it corroborates it - it's not as if there's "no evidence").

---

It's 2:15 AM so you'll forgive me for not referencing with Bible verses, but...

Quote:2) I didn't want to be negative but you guys seriously have no idea what Hinduism is. 20000 innocent muslims were killed in a riot, and people were beaten for converting to christianity. One girl even got her face disfigured by acid. Police were involved. EVERY SINGLE HINDU hates homosexuals. There is a nationwide ban on gay marriage, and seriously unlike modern day catholics (who have gay friends) they are open about their hatred about them. But I understand that I can't base a whole group of people on the actions of a few.

Jehovah/Yahweh says that homosexuals are to be put to death, and Paul says that they and other people who will not change their ways are to be excommunicated (ie cut off from contact entirely).

Quote:3) the idea of atheism at birth is debatable but I kind of agree with it. But in my case I came to god because of science. I wondered why water- a liquid made exclusively of hydrogen and oxygen is the way it is; why only molecules of H2 and O2 were drinkable and unique among all substances. Why water hosted the first living things on earth. An accident that hydrogen and oxygen were meant to join and host microorganisms? I'd differ

Water itself is not essential for facilitating life, carbon is. You could certainly argue that without carbon life cannot exist.

Quote:4) complex organs in organisms. A leopard's eye, a cheetahs legs, the human brain computing thousands of stimuli and the functionality of organs. Evolution? Yes. But such intelligence in their designs.

The Bible (Genesis 1) says that humans were created before animals. The Mantis shrimp has Hexnocular vision and can perceive ultraviolet and what we call visible light. It is well among the most advanced visual system ever discovered. Also, the fractal lens (a human invention) was later discovered to be already invented in nature in some marine life.

The fact that you can't explain them doesn't mean that Jehovah created them.

(October 5, 2014 at 10:32 am)Retrolord Wrote: I'm going to convert to Catholicism from Hinduism next year. I joined to see what made people atheists. I wanted to see what goes inside your minds. I don't mean to mock or convert.

Welcome. I do have to say, I find it odd that you are predicting your conversion that far into the future and don't simply say that you're Catholic.

(October 5, 2014 at 10:32 am)Retrolord Wrote: For starters I'd like to ask you what did you dislike about Christianity (apart from the practitioners). I also would like to know about the questions you had in your mind when you left the faith of your ancestors. Perhaps I could give a shot at answering them? (Only if you wish)

I was Christian for about 30 years. My deconversion was pretty slow. I simply realized one day that I no longer believed. I spend a couple of years trying to get myself to believe again, but it never worked for very long. I then spent around six months worried that I was wrong and was going to end up in hell. I eventually let go when I thought about how I'd never worried about going to Muslim hell for not following the five pillars of Islam, or worried about any other religions. I was only worried about Christianity out of habit.

That being said, I'm not religious now because I don't see any non-presuppositional evidence for it. Every bit of "evidence" someone shows me always relies on them assuming God exists in the first place.

As far as what I dislike about Christianity? Apart from it being completely non-falsifiable, I'm not a big fan of the notion that we're nothing without God and that we are deserving of eternal punishment from birth. Also, the notion of an "all loving" god creating hell never made sense to me, either.