(June 25, 2010 at 2:52 am)tackattack Wrote: Ok I can comprehend that explanation. So why is everyone so up in arms when Fr0d0 say God just is, he's self-evident. I'll fit it into your explination:

Santa - meaning creator of our enviornment - is self evident. It is the basis to which morality applies. You make distinctions in your life based on your perceptions of Santa. It's a given that everything you percieve is from Santa since Santa created everything. The concept of Santa will be percieved as righteous if it conforms with your idea of how reality works. Santa is self evident because it's used as a method for determining what is right and not right - I use Santa as a yardstick to measure and improve individual morality.

Replace god with santa and the argument falls apart. Since it can be applied to every imaginable character.

(June 25, 2010 at 2:52 am)tackattack Wrote: Ok I can comprehend that explanation. So why is everyone so up in arms when Fr0d0 say God just is, he's self-evident. I'll fit it into your explination:

God - meaning creator of our enviornment - is self evident. It is the basis to which morality applies. You make distinctions in your life based on your perceptions of God. It's a given that everything you percieve is from God since God created everything. The concept of God will be percieved as righteous if it conforms with your idea of how reality works. God is self evident because it's used as a method for determining what is right and not right - I use God as a yardstick to measure and improve individual morality.

Only if you already believe in god, otherwise he is not self evident at all.

And god is not the basis of my morality, or yours, for that matter.

(June 25, 2010 at 2:52 am)tackattack Wrote: Ok I can comprehend that explanation. So why is everyone so up in arms when Fr0d0 say God just is, he's self-evident.

Because "God" is not self-evident. If you think he is, then I could argue that Lucky the Leprechaun is self-evident.

Quote:I'll fit it into your explination:

God - meaning creator of our enviornment - is self evident.

No, he's not. But please go on...

Quote:It is the basis to which morality applies.

Then all believers should have the same views when it comes to morality, shouldn't they? I mean, if this deity is the "basis to which morality applies", then what is considered moral should be crystal clear. Then explain to me why devout believers come down on both sides of many issues of morality. Capital punishment, abortion, gambling, consuming alcohol, homosexuality, etc.... Fervent believers argue about these issues! If "God" truly let us know what is and isn't moral, there would be no disagreements whatsoever!

Quote:You make distinctions in your life based on your perceptions of God.

No, I don't. "God" does not figure into any distictions I make.

Quote:It's a given that everything you percieve is from God since God created everything.

And here you try to slip in the unsupported claim that "God created everything". Show me some evidence of this.

Quote:The concept of God will be percieved as righteous if it conforms with your idea of how reality works.

This sentence means nothing.

Quote:God is self evident because it's used as a method for determining what is right and not right - I use God as a yardstick to measure and improve individual morality.

See above comment regarding "God" and morality.

Quote: So why is everyone so up in arms when Fr0d0 say God just is, he's self-evident.

Because it sounds like a flashback from a bad 60's acid trip.

Overall, if something doesn't have matter, nor energy, it doesn't exist. Simple as that.

(June 25, 2010 at 2:52 am)tackattack Wrote: Ok I can comprehend that explanation. So why is everyone so up in arms when Fr0d0 say God just is, he's self-evident. I'll fit it into your explination:

God isn't demonstrably self-evident.

I can demonstrate the existence of the universe to you - in fact, I wouldn't even have to. The fact you're reading this affirms that you indeed exist, and reside within our universe's parameters.

Here's a quick recap:

Do you exist?

If yes, then you have just demonstrated that you are, indeed part of this universe - defined as the sum of totality. In fact, I'd go as far as to say the universe is something our perception cannot be without, and has reached a point where we as a species have reached a consensus about how to view the universe, if only in a strictly basic sense of survival.

Even if you were a solipsist in the strictest sense of the word and made the case that everyone else is a conjuration of yours, your existence within the framework of the universe would still be just as demonstrable and your perceptions still just as self-evident. This is also evidenced in the guiding axiom called the primacy of existence - that existence exists regardless of our perceptions.

(June 25, 2010 at 2:52 am)tackattack Wrote: God - meaning creator of our enviornment - is self evident. It is the basis to which morality applies.

That doesn't make any sense.

Things based on certain modes of perception, namely physically demonstrable entities can be self-evident. If we both go outside and it's raining and we experience it, that perception is self-evident. We require no more proof or evidence for that matter - we take for granted that our perceptions are true, and that rain is indeed falling from the sky. Moreover, the wealth of perceptions we have give us a sort of buffer against delusion.

For example, if it started raining lego bricks and no one around me noticed, my perception could be at fault, but this can only be known through the experience that it has never rained legos in my life, and such a prospect would be infinitesimally unlikely.

However, the fact that it's raining is by no means affected by my perception of it, exactly the opposite. My perception is affected by the fact that it's raining.

In other instances, these same criteria would not apply, for example if we were in a building with no windows and someone told us it was raining. That wouldn't be self-evident, because we have absolutely no way of knowing if it is indeed raining or not. This requires empirical evidence.

This is where God comes in. . Those who think about things rationally rather than emotionally have trouble grasping the concept of a contradictory being that is the necessary author of the universe, especially taking such a claim wholly on faith. It won't fly, and you need extraordinary evidence for such a claim, since the claim has very lofty sights and explanatory scope.

This doesn't mean God doesn't exist independently somewhere, it just means that such a being hasn't been demonstrated to exist, and can therefore colloquially can be said NOT to exist. Note that this isn't an absolute certainty, but in the same sense as leprechauns, santa claus, and pixies.

(June 25, 2010 at 2:52 am)tackattack Wrote: You make distinctions in your life based on your perceptions of God.

Wrong. Decisions in my life don't include God, nor do I perceive him.

(June 25, 2010 at 2:52 am)tackattack Wrote: It's a given that everything you percieve is from God since God created everything.

It's logically valid, but your premises are unsound. You have yet to demonstrate that a God exists.

(June 25, 2010 at 2:52 am)tackattack Wrote: The concept of God will be percieved as righteous if it conforms with your idea of how reality works. God is self evident because it's used as a method for determining what is right and not right - I use God as a yardstick to measure and improve individual morality.

That only gives me insight to your subjective interpretation of a God concept, it has no explanatory value or demonstrable qualities at all.

tackattack Wrote:So why is everyone so up in arms when Fr0d0 say God just is, he's self-evident.

Isn't that self evident?

LOL, ok so the arguement presented for the self evidence of the universe originally left out demonstratability. Aside from a little uproar then, what you're actually demonstrating are the laws, axioms and fundamental characteristics of the universe, that lead to it's demonstratability not actually demonstrating the universe as a whole. So something is self evident if it conforms to a universal definition amongst consenting individuals and it's attributes are demonstrable is that about it?

Quote:

(June 25, 2010 at 2:52 am)tackattack Wrote:

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Ok I can comprehend that explanation. So why is everyone so up in arms when Fr0d0 say God just is, he's self-evident. I'll fit it into your explination:

God - meaning creator of our enviornment - is self evident. It is the basis to which morality applies. You make distinctions in your life based on your perceptions of God. It's a given that everything you percieve is from God since God created everything. The concept of God will be percieved as righteous if it conforms with your idea of how reality works. God is self evident because it's used as a method for determining what is right and not right - I use God as a yardstick to measure and improve individual morality.

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Only if you already believe in god, otherwise he is not self evident at all.

And god is not the basis of my morality, or yours, for that matter.

No he's not the basis, but the yardstick by which I measure mine.

(June 26, 2010 at 3:49 am)tackattack Wrote: LOL, ok so the arguement presented for the self evidence of the universe originally left out demonstratability.

No it didn't.

I wrote:

The universe - meaning reality as demonstrated by our environment - is self evident.

(June 26, 2010 at 3:49 am)tackattack Wrote: Aside from a little uproar then, what you're actually demonstrating are the laws, axioms and fundamental characteristics of the universe, that lead to it's demonstratability not actually demonstrating the universe as a whole.

How is the demonstrability of universal laws and fundamental characteristics of the universe NOT actually demonstrating the universe?

If I demonstrate that the characteristics of an apple exist, am I not demonstrating that the apple exists?

Existence isn't an attribute - it's the thing to which attributes apply.

(June 26, 2010 at 3:49 am)tackattack Wrote: So something is self evident if it conforms to a universal definition amongst consenting individuals and it's attributes are demonstrable is that about it?

Not necessarily, but in this case, such an assessment would apply. I also assume you're talking about our perception of the universe and not the universe itself.

(June 25, 2010 at 2:52 am)tackattack Wrote: No he's not the basis, but the yardstick by which I measure mine.

OK.

Is whatever God says moral? or is God just commanding already moral actions?

(June 26, 2010 at 4:07 am)tavarish Wrote: Is whatever God says moral? or is God just commanding already moral actions?

Perhaps some help here tarvish.....

Their god /dog says that it is OK to rape young children, murder their mothers and totally wipe out and entire socio political system...THESE are their 'morals' after all ...it is written in their holey book. Which ever one of the three they wish to cite from.

The 'Commands (moral or not)' are what ever they decide are expedient at the time......aka what ever saves their collective arses from scrutiny and sheds no light on their 'souls'...

They live in primitive darkness for all that they think that they have "seen the light".....