(October 6, 2014 at 12:53 am)Afifa Qua Wrote: <snip>
1. Well i still respect him as he didnt limit his logical mind of God existence. I still need to learn more about philosophy, i cannot just follow al-ghazaly(claim avicenna as heretic) as some of moslems do., without i learn about avicenna philosophy furthermore.

*Herewego, finally..human beings are only able to depict human beings - Muhammad.Means, God of Moslem is still untouchable-you can depict myLord freely, but well, at least you must define what's your imagination about my Lord's form. Some moslem are become very triggered when non-believers depicted Muhammad in certain form of human beings. That's undeniable. But me-i can deal with that, even if i dont want to depict muhammad.

2. If you consider nowadays koran is no longer origin, then there must be a knowledge of the origin one, do you have any ?

3. Common news of Moslem : in my country itself, with majority Moslem, is divided by many societies of Moslem : Radical Moslems Vs Moderate/Scholars Moslem.
Violences issue : Dude, there's even rule about 'combatant and non combatant' in war rules of Islam. You just, i consider, too many seeing FoxNews or others similar. Also, terrorist action-who some of people believe that's because Islam endorse its act by one of Islam's Dogma(Jihad). Jihad itself, the highest level of Jihad is 'Controlling Lust of human beings'. Simple as that. Shallow understanding of any religion dogma or lets say any disciplines knowledge will lead to an inconsequential action.
Point is, human beings/religion cannot control others human beings mind of thinking. Means, freedom of thinking.

4.i'm still working on it i admit. Because i'm holding on one of math theory : 'theory of possibility'. where remains another 'dogma' of Islam which still need to be proved.

5. Example : Allah. This is not the name of My Lord like, christian & catholic has Jesus because his parent named his that way. Allah is arabic language to define God. English is 'God/Lord', Bahasa (my language) is 'Tuhan'. Allah in arabic is a unique word, which does not conjure up any mental picture nor can it be played around with. God if you add father will be God father, God added dess will be Goddess. There is nothing like male Allah or female Allah. Allah-arabic has no gender.

Then, i'm still assuming, science is sort of eliminating shapes/models/God,.but not the existence yet.

Thanks for your answer.

1.Why do you think that he had a logical mind ?

2.You can deal with people who depict Muhammad. No problem.

3.The original text was lose because it was only an oral recitation. But we have texts before that Caliph 'Uthman asked the destruction of other version of Qur'an.
Some texts survived to burning such Sana'a manuscript.
If you want to know more about Sana'a manuscript :

Bahasa Indonesia : http://id.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manuskrip_Sana%27a
English : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sana%27a_manuscript

4.How do you define the differences between radicals and moderates.
If you use the word moderates like Western media that means
that moderates practice religion with moderation and that radical
are right. When we say that an Imam is a fundie , what that means ?
What is the difference ? How define the border ?
About violence : I precise that I don't watch FoxNews or any TV channel of this kind.
Read the ninth surah. This is not for nothing that its surname is "surah al-saîf" (Arabic : سورة من السيف) or "Surah of the Sword" in English.
The majority of Muslim Scholars will say you that it abrogate the peaceful verses from Mecqua.
You speak about rules , I suppose that you will say me the classics things that a Muslim say about it such :
A.Don't kill the women.
B.Don't kill the old people.
C.Don't kill the people with disabilities.
D.Don't kill those who are unharmed.


But you forget that Qur'an speak about how accomplish a millitary conquest.
Your holy book authorise slaving.
Also these (pseudo)-rules are really respected ?
No , see Hamas who use civilians like human shield.
They force them to be martyrs. Therefore they haven't the same definition of civilian that Westerners have because Islam say that martyrdom for Allah is good for humanity.


5.I would like a conclusion. Is this possible that Adam did never existed for you ?

6.I know these things about Arabic language. But litteraly it means "the God". A god among other. Before Islam he was considered like the head of pantheon Gods of Arabs tribes.

(October 3, 2014 at 4:18 am)Afifa Qua Wrote: This is my standpoint :
Christians should realise they live in Country where moslems are majority., dont set the fire against petrol. Yet..moslems as mentioned in above news, are retarded. There are some radical moslem organisations in my country, but there are also 2 biggest Islam Organisation : Muhammadiyah, and Nahdlatul Ulama..which are so passive in any issue on Islam(passive in physical reaction). I cannot write it down all because it's exhausting also. LoL.

I'm a moslem, but just not what all has mentioned in this forum. That's why i'm sort of wondering what's so happening. LoL. In fact, i'm so attached w/ philosphy and science.

Have they spoken out against the radicals? Taken a stand? Disavowed them?

I will take you seriously when they do.

Welcome back.

Yes, Islam, like Christianity, is poison, as far as I'm concerned.

Agno, my book says the devil comes to steal, kill and destroy, so when you see that- you have found the devil.
Welcome to Islam, inheritor to the deeds of Catholicism.
Of course it is of the devil.

(October 7, 2014 at 3:39 pm)professor Wrote: Agno, my book says the devil comes to steal, kill and destroy, so when you see that- you have found the devil.
Welcome to Islam, inheritor to the deeds of Catholicism.
Of course it is of the devil.

And my book says that the devil, like any gods, doesn't exist.

Welcome to reality, the only game in town.

(October 6, 2014 at 11:52 pm)viocjit Wrote:

(October 6, 2014 at 12:53 am)Afifa Qua Wrote: <snip>
1. Well i still respect him as he didnt limit his logical mind of God existence. I still need to learn more about philosophy, i cannot just follow al-ghazaly(claim avicenna as heretic) as some of moslems do., without i learn about avicenna philosophy furthermore.

*Herewego, finally..human beings are only able to depict human beings - Muhammad.Means, God of Moslem is still untouchable-you can depict myLord freely, but well, at least you must define what's your imagination about my Lord's form. Some moslem are become very triggered when non-believers depicted Muhammad in certain form of human beings. That's undeniable. But me-i can deal with that, even if i dont want to depict muhammad.

2. If you consider nowadays koran is no longer origin, then there must be a knowledge of the origin one, do you have any ?

3. Common news of Moslem : in my country itself, with majority Moslem, is divided by many societies of Moslem : Radical Moslems Vs Moderate/Scholars Moslem.
Violences issue : Dude, there's even rule about 'combatant and non combatant' in war rules of Islam. You just, i consider, too many seeing FoxNews or others similar. Also, terrorist action-who some of people believe that's because Islam endorse its act by one of Islam's Dogma(Jihad). Jihad itself, the highest level of Jihad is 'Controlling Lust of human beings'. Simple as that. Shallow understanding of any religion dogma or lets say any disciplines knowledge will lead to an inconsequential action.
Point is, human beings/religion cannot control others human beings mind of thinking. Means, freedom of thinking.

4.i'm still working on it i admit. Because i'm holding on one of math theory : 'theory of possibility'. where remains another 'dogma' of Islam which still need to be proved.

5. Example : Allah. This is not the name of My Lord like, christian & catholic has Jesus because his parent named his that way. Allah is arabic language to define God. English is 'God/Lord', Bahasa (my language) is 'Tuhan'. Allah in arabic is a unique word, which does not conjure up any mental picture nor can it be played around with. God if you add father will be God father, God added dess will be Goddess. There is nothing like male Allah or female Allah. Allah-arabic has no gender.

Then, i'm still assuming, science is sort of eliminating shapes/models/God,.but not the existence yet.

Thanks for your answer.

1.Why do you think that he had a logical mind ?

2.You can deal with people who depict Muhammad. No problem.

3.The original text was lose because it was only an oral recitation. But we have texts before that Caliph 'Uthman asked the destruction of other version of Qur'an.
Some texts survived to burning such Sana'a manuscript.
If you want to know more about Sana'a manuscript :

Bahasa Indonesia : http://id.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manuskrip_Sana%27a
English : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sana%27a_manuscript

4.How do you define the differences between radicals and moderates.
If you use the word moderates like Western media that means
that moderates practice religion with moderation and that radical
are right. When we say that an Imam is a fundie , what that means ?
What is the difference ? How define the border ?
About violence : I precise that I don't watch FoxNews or any TV channel of this kind.
Read the ninth surah. This is not for nothing that its surname is "surah al-saîf" (Arabic : سورة من السيف) or "Surah of the Sword" in English.
The majority of Muslim Scholars will say you that it abrogate the peaceful verses from Mecqua.
You speak about rules , I suppose that you will say me the classics things that a Muslim say about it such :
A.Don't kill the women.
B.Don't kill the old people.
C.Don't kill the people with disabilities.
D.Don't kill those who are unharmed.


But you forget that Qur'an speak about how accomplish a millitary conquest.
Your holy book authorise slaving.
Also these (pseudo)-rules are really respected ?
No , see Hamas who use civilians like human shield.
They force them to be martyrs. Therefore they haven't the same definition of civilian that Westerners have because Islam say that martyrdom for Allah is good for humanity.


5.I would like a conclusion. Is this possible that Adam did never existed for you ?

6.I know these things about Arabic language. But litteraly it means "the God". A god among other. Before Islam he was considered like the head of pantheon Gods of Arabs tribes.

1. If he didnt, he wouldnt able to delve philosophy.
2. About tolerancy, i think tolerancy means peaceful among societies
3. Well i dont take my part into it, i will let the expert figures it out.
4. First, if you aint a moslem, it will be long-preachy to tell. Shortly, extremist oftenly append/exaggerate sharia. Fundie is nothig like extremist.
Second, as moslem, there're some method of interpretation of alqur'an, approx 20 methods., if that is the result of your own way interpretation..please..but i wont use your way. Therefore, we will have standpoint about it. And, i dont learn about all the methods of interpretation yet.

5. Well, what makes us different from animal is that we have mind. I dont know how mind can evoluting yet. Besides, i dont like his theory because i think i'm not supposed to have apes as my ancestor.So, i will still recognise adam as the first human

6. Before Islam, God depicts with some human nature. But i think, its words like i said, at least that word has no gender. I think that explains enough that no matter moslem claims that arabic is the most perfect & suitable language, still it's not perfect yet to define God.

(October 7, 2014 at 12:03 am)Chas Wrote:

(October 3, 2014 at 4:18 am)Afifa Qua Wrote: This is my standpoint :
Christians should realise they live in Country where moslems are majority., dont set the fire against petrol. Yet..moslems as mentioned in above news, are retarded. There are some radical moslem organisations in my country, but there are also 2 biggest Islam Organisation : Muhammadiyah, and Nahdlatul Ulama..which are so passive in any issue on Islam(passive in physical reaction). I cannot write it down all because it's exhausting also. LoL.

I'm a moslem, but just not what all has mentioned in this forum. That's why i'm sort of wondering what's so happening. LoL. In fact, i'm so attached w/ philosphy and science.

Have they spoken out against the radicals? Taken a stand? Disavowed them?

I will take you seriously when they do.

Well, i need to tell you that you actually need to live in the country where 6 religion is recognised by Gov and how complex the society is to really know the circumstances. For this, i can only simply say that those 2 peaceful organisations focus to their member respectively, to empower, enlighten, and accomodate any moslem to learn about Islam. Of course this is for moslem who accepts those 2 organisations-become member or just having same standpoint. To restrain radicalism is not their full responsible, gov is the responsible party (then gov liaise with any organisation of islam that's not extremist, radical). Shortly, as long as radical/extremist group of moslem do not create chaos against society, well their faith is their rights, and this is mentioned in constitution, which means freedom of faith is protected by Gov.

Afifa, why exactly do you choose to recognize yourself as a moslem, instead of a buddhist or other such religions? If you like philosophy, Buddhism has a lot more and better philosophies, have you ever taken the time to study those? When you consider philosophies or morals or knowledge, they are not tied to any particular religion, rather when religion gets involved in philosophy it eventually leads to a corrupt understanding, because the idea of religion is to control by filling in the gaps of knowledge with ignorance, most religions will eventually put those beyond any form of scrutiny (think blasphemy laws).

Quote:Shortly, as long as radical/extremist group of moslem do not create chaos against society, well their faith is their rights, and this is mentioned in constitution, which means freedom of faith is protected by Gov.

Let's say I believe in the all powerful Nuke-gawd (piss be upon it), should I be allowed to keep the nuke in my home just because I haven't yet used it to 'create chaos against society'?
I am not against people having their faiths, but you need to also consider that when that same faith is being used as a weapon in many places all over the world with much more damage than any nuke in history, it might not be too wise to just leave it be.

(July 25, 2014 at 6:25 am)A-g-n-o-s-t-i-c Wrote: Hi.
I have return again to this forum.
I should say my English language is not good but i use Google translator and use dictionary to speak with you.
Google translator is not good and very time it mistake and i must edit it for communicating with you.

In this topic I say why Islam is evilly.

Welcome. It seems to me that the key factor in making any ideology or religion evil is to treat it as dogma...sooner or later, thinking there are ideas that shouldn't ever be challenged will lead to grief.

---

(October 3, 2014 at 1:01 am)Afifa Qua Wrote: Hahaha. I'm so laughing.
I'm loud proudly saying i'm muslim. and i dont kill any human till now, and i'm fine w/ my religion.It's so again i have to say peaceful Islam in Indonesia-my home country. Most of people actually do not realise that they're pointing blame to the Muslims who act awful. But not Islam its self. And gladly that no one can mock to my Lord, because yes..my Lord and even Muhammad actually, are prohibited to be depicted in any form of creatures.

Shortly,if you just know a lil bit about avicenna or others muslim philosopher, you will see Islam in different standpoint. For me as muslim, it takes so much time to learn deeply about my religion, and even to translate > understand Qur'an in my language.arabic is a language w/ high interpretation. I'm still working on it. and i love it, because it's like learning literature.

I heard many-thousands mocking about islam, but i still embrace it. but i enjoy every ribbing about Islam. It's democration isn it ?
PEACE - sorry if my english is bad

No worries on the language. Islamism is a problem that Muslims need to overcome, but Islam doesn't have to be like that. Keep it separate from government and realize some practices, like hudud punishments, were for another time; and Islam is no more (or less) problematic than other religions.

---

(October 3, 2014 at 4:18 am)Afifa Qua Wrote: This is my standpoint :
Christians should realise they live in Country where moslems are majority., dont set the fire against petrol.

This is my standpoint: a civilized community doesn't criminalize speech because it offends the majority. It's exactly speech that offends the majority that needs protecting. Anc civilized people don't riot over someone distributing their personal views. Protest maybe, distribute their own pamphlets sure, but not riot.

(October 3, 2014 at 4:18 am)Afifa Qua Wrote: Yet..moslems as mentioned in above news, are retarded. There are some radical moslem organisations in my country, but there are also 2 biggest Islam Organisation : Muhammadiyah, and Nahdlatul Ulama..which are so passive in any issue on Islam(passive in physical reaction). I cannot write it down all because it's exhausting also. LoL.

I am glad there are also Muslims like you there to vote against them.

(October 3, 2014 at 4:18 am)Afifa Qua Wrote: I'm a moslem, but just not what all has mentioned in this forum. That's why i'm sort of wondering what's so happening. LoL. In fact, i'm so attached w/ philosphy and science.

The atheists in this forum spend a lot of time patiently or not-so-patiently explaining that atheists are a diverse demographic. Yet some of us tend to forget at times that Muslims are also a diverse demographci.

Islam is a piece of shit. Either reform it or destroy it. That's what I say.