(October 26, 2014 at 9:44 pm)Lek Wrote: You've got it all wrong as to why God created us. His purpose in creating all of us is to have a voluntary loving relationship with him. I personally tend to believe that's the way it will be in eternity, but some us will take the non-stop flight and some of us will have a layover on the way. I also don't see any indication that he doubts his own existence.

(October 27, 2014 at 11:44 am)Chas Wrote: That sounds like wishful thinking and imagination, not anything you could actually know.

I get it from scripture. I know, to you, that doesn't count.

(October 27, 2014 at 12:30 pm)Lek Wrote:

(October 26, 2014 at 9:44 pm)Lek Wrote: You've got it all wrong as to why God created us. His purpose in creating all of us is to have a voluntary loving relationship with him. I personally tend to believe that's the way it will be in eternity, but some us will take the non-stop flight and some of us will have a layover on the way. I also don't see any indication that he doubts his own existence.

(October 27, 2014 at 11:44 am)Chas Wrote: That sounds like wishful thinking and imagination, not anything you could actually know.

I get it from scripture. I know, to you, that doesn't count.

You're right. There is no reason to believe scripture other than faith. But faith does not give you knowledge.

(October 26, 2014 at 9:44 pm)Lek Wrote:

(October 26, 2014 at 4:02 pm)MountainsWinAgain Wrote: so your meaning for this life and afterlife is to praise a deity who created you for the sole purpose of having someone to praise him?

Your god doubts its own existence,what kind of all knowing,all powerful being is this,it wants that his creation is constantly praising him,and if the creation refuses to praise him it sends them to hell. I think that your god has serious mental issues.

You've got it all wrong as to why God created us. His purpose in creating all of us is to have a voluntary loving relationship with him. I personally tend to believe that's the way it will be in eternity, but some us will take the non-stop flight and some of us will have a layover on the way. I also don't see any indication that he doubts his own existence.

Love me love me more than you love yourself your family your friends or you will burn in hell. This does not seem like voluntary love.

Quote:I also don't see any indication that he doubts his own existence.

If you need constant praising,constant worshipfulness,constant attention this indicates that you don't value yourself and you are not really sure who you are,or if you even exists if you don't have validation from other people

(October 27, 2014 at 1:39 pm)MountainsWinAgain Wrote:

(October 26, 2014 at 9:44 pm)Lek Wrote: You've got it all wrong as to why God created us. His purpose in creating all of us is to have a voluntary loving relationship with him. I personally tend to believe that's the way it will be in eternity, but some us will take the non-stop flight and some of us will have a layover on the way. I also don't see any indication that he doubts his own existence.

Love me love me more than you love yourself your family your friends or you will burn in hell. This does not seem like voluntary love.

Quote:I also don't see any indication that he doubts his own existence.

If you need constant praising,constant worshipfulness,constant attention this indicates that you don't value yourself and you are not really sure who you are,or if you even exists if you don't have validation from other people

Mandatory love you are forced to. even if you some what love god you fully have to.

(October 27, 2014 at 3:22 pm)dyresand Wrote:

(October 27, 2014 at 1:39 pm)MountainsWinAgain Wrote: Love me love me more than you love yourself your family your friends or you will burn in hell. This does not seem like voluntary love.

If you need constant praising,constant worshipfulness,constant attention this indicates that you don't value yourself and you are not really sure who you are,or if you even exists if you don't have validation from other people

Mandatory love you are forced to. even if you some what love god you fully have to.

(October 29, 2014 at 4:47 pm)MountainsWinAgain Wrote:

(October 27, 2014 at 3:22 pm)dyresand Wrote: Mandatory love you are forced to. even if you some what love god you fully have to.

Hell is complete separation from God. Isn't what you want? It wouldn't be very loving for him to make you spend eternity with him when you didn't want to. You guys are never satisfied.

(October 29, 2014 at 5:12 pm)Lek Wrote: Hell is complete separation from God. Isn't what you want? It wouldn't be very loving for him to make you spend eternity with him when you didn't want to. You guys are never satisfied.

Why not just let us choose how we spend our afterlives for ourselves? If it's just a separation, if there's no punishment angle from our supposed judge, why force us into anything? Why do all those free will excuses you guys use as a shield disappear completely the moment we die?

Also, I find it telling that possibly the most important aspect of this, to an atheist, completely slipped your mind: what about our theist friends and family? Don't you think we'll miss them, or want to see them? Isn't that sufficient reason to be upset at the concept of hell?

Why is it that whenever the heaven question comes up, you theists only ever seem to think that the discussion is about god alone, and not any of the other concerns there are?

(October 29, 2014 at 5:20 pm)Esquilax Wrote: Why not just let us choose how we spend our afterlives for ourselves? If it's just a separation, if there's no punishment angle from our supposed judge, why force us into anything? Why do all those free will excuses you guys use as a shield disappear completely the moment we die?

Also, I find it telling that possibly the most important aspect of this, to an atheist, completely slipped your mind: what about our theist friends and family? Don't you think we'll miss them, or want to see them? Isn't that sufficient reason to be upset at the concept of hell?

Why is it that whenever the heaven question comes up, you theists only ever seem to think that the discussion is about god alone, and not any of the other concerns there are?

Let me clarify what I believe about hell, and this does come from scripture and is a view held by many christians, including some church fathers. The catholic church adopted the "eternal torment" view, and since they were the only christian church for over a thousand years, it became the predominantly accepted view among christians. I'm not a theologian, but I tend to believe that hell is a temporary state in which all eventually come to faith. It's not a nice place because it involves separation from God's protection. But as scripture says, "Christ died for all". At any rate, either you want to be with him or you don't. You wouldn't want him to force you to be with him. There just isn't a third option with God.

(October 29, 2014 at 5:12 pm)Lek Wrote: Hell is complete separation from God. Isn't what you want? It wouldn't be very loving for him to make you spend eternity with him when you didn't want to. You guys are never satisfied.

Depends on your interpretation or your church. There are about 40.000 different breeds and flavors and a considerable part tend to favor the fire and brimstone theory. Growing up as a Catholic it was all fire, brimstone and eternal torture.

(October 29, 2014 at 5:34 pm)Lek Wrote: It's not a nice place because it involves separation from God's protection. But as scripture says, "Christ died for all". At any rate, either you want to be with him or you don't. You wouldn't want him to force you to be with him. There just isn't a third option with God.

Sounds more like purgatory to me. Another Catholic invention to make some coin. In fact, the selling of indulgences, where you could buy off a certain amount of years in purgatory, were one of the reasons why Luther rebelled.

(October 29, 2014 at 6:07 pm)abaris Wrote: Sounds more like purgatory to me. Another Catholic invention to make some coin. In fact, the selling of indulgences, where you could buy off a certain amount of years in purgatory, were one of the reasons why Luther rebelled.

The difference with purgatory is that only "saved" people go there, whereas the doctrine of hell that I lean toward, involves the eventual salvation of all people.