(November 6, 2014 at 10:33 am)Pickup_shonuff Wrote: Abolishing the minimum wage would be effectively legalizing slavery. There's no way in hell that businesses would pay workers more than what they have to, and for many jobs, that would be basically nothing.

The system I propose would make people much more free. No minimum wage and a guaranteed income. Your boss wants to you work on the Lord's day? You can tell him to fuck off and quit....even if you are an atheist.

If you quit a job today...you have no income. Minimum wages lock people into jobs because it makes harder to find jobs and harder to quit a job you don't like.

Minimum wage helps some at the expense of others. The Davis Bacon act was passed because cheap "non local" (black people from the south) labor was hurting the white man's ability to command a living wage. The Davis Bacon act required government contractors to pay prevailing wages demanded by white only unions. It allowed white unions to discriminate against blacks(by keeping them out) without any economic consequences. Prior to Davis Bacon the white unions either had to admit blacks in order to prevent them from under bidding them or accept the same lower wages black labor was working for. After Davis Bacon, black labor cost the same as white labor....and consequently there was no advantage to hire black labor over white labor....and consequently if you wanted to discriminate against blacks...it didn't cost you anything extra.

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(November 6, 2014 at 11:33 am)Pickup_shonuff Wrote:

(November 6, 2014 at 11:00 am)Mister Agenda Wrote: It's almost like you completely missed the half of Heywood's proposal that involves a minimum income.

I wasn't writing in regards to Heywood or anyone else specifically, just the general idea I often hear conservatives suggest (without qualification about any minimum income, which I'm down with, but hardly seems realistic with our current politicians).

A negative income tax(which is a form of basic income) was almost passed under the Nixon administration.

(November 6, 2014 at 11:11 am)Mister Agenda Wrote:

(November 5, 2014 at 8:53 pm)stonedape Wrote: Athens Greece is the only case I can think of where it totally backfired. They were promised boats and the retirement age of 45. But countries like Swizerland where min wage is $25 an hour have great economies.

Ultimately I am against minimum wage. I am for profit shares. Productivity goes up when it's rewarded directly.

The $25 minimum wage didn't pass, with over 70% of voters against it. It's purchasing power would have been the equivalent of about a $14 an hour wage in the USA.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-05-18...shows.html

Um no. Again you can make a case for lower wages in places where cost of living are lower. No matter the location wages should allow for a person to work one job and have the ability to pay their bills. It still amounts to a ratio and if that ratio does not meet the cost of living it creates more dependency on society.

Every social ill we bitch about stems from our pay gap. Reduce the pay gap increase the ability to live, more business less dependency, less crime, better education.

oops, There goes Obamacare, at least that's what they said.

manowar

(November 6, 2014 at 12:18 pm)Brian37 Wrote: Um no. Again you can make a case for lower wages in places where cost of living are lower. No matter the location wages should allow for a person to work one job and have the ability to pay their bills. It still amounts to a ratio and if that ratio does not meet the cost of living it creates more dependency on society.

Animals have to work until they make their nut....that might take them 2 hours a day or it might take them 22 hours a day. Why should humans be any different? Are humans some special creation?

(November 6, 2014 at 12:18 pm)Brian37 Wrote: Every social ill we bitch about stems from our pay gap. Reduce the pay gap increase the ability to live, more business less dependency, less crime, better education.

Lets solve everything by making the minimum wage $10,000 dollars an hour.

(November 6, 2014 at 12:27 pm)Heywood Wrote: Lets solve everything by making the minimum wage $10,000 dollars an hour.

Great suggestion. It would force co-operative ownership. I told you I'm against minimum wage anyways, since I'm a socialist. All wage slavery is wrong.

(November 6, 2014 at 12:27 pm)Heywood Wrote: Lets solve everything by making the minimum wage $10,000 dollars an hour.

"Hey I know! If I say a ridiculous thing, the argument will vanish!"

(November 6, 2014 at 7:47 pm)Esquilax Wrote:

(November 6, 2014 at 12:27 pm)Heywood Wrote: Lets solve everything by making the minimum wage $10,000 dollars an hour.

"Hey I know! If I say a ridiculous thing, the argument will vanish!"

An exaggerated minimum wage highlights the absurdity of believing a minimum wage can solve our social ills. If minimum wages add more buying power to some peoples pockets it has to come at the expense of others. Minimum wage proponents would like you to think they only hurt the bottom line of businesses. This isn't true...minimum wage hurts the bottom line of businesses, but also hurts those whose labor is priced out of the market. Suggesting a $10,000 minimum wage is ridiculous if you are serious about it. Its not ridiculous when its suggested as a thought experiment to highlight the effects of a minimum wage people forget about. This video will explain what I am talking about(Davies makes an obvious error...but over all the video is spot on...see if you can spot his error).

(November 6, 2014 at 7:56 pm)Heywood Wrote:

(November 6, 2014 at 7:47 pm)Esquilax Wrote: "Hey I know! If I say a ridiculous thing, the argument will vanish!"

An exaggerated minimum wage highlights the absurdity of believing a minimum wage can solve our social ills. If minimum wages add more buying power to some peoples pockets they have to hurt others. Minimum wage proponents would like you to think they only hurt the bottom line of businesses. This isn't true...minimum wage hurts the bottom line of businesses, but also hurts those whose labor is priced out of the market.

Look, I came in here to point out the absurdity of your argument: positing a scenario in which too much of a minimum wage can be a bad thing, does not say anything about the benefits of a reasonable minimum wage, because too much means "that amount which is excessive," and the argument in favor of the minimum wage is not the thoughtless "more money in da wage good!" caricature that you're actually arguing against with it. You're constructing a strawman there, and arguing poorly by failing to address the point at hand in favor of what amounts to nothing more than slinging mud.

Additionally, the argument you ended up making when taken to task on how poorly your overly simplistic snidery served you isn't even factually accurate; nations in which the minimum wage is high enough to live on aren't swamped with unemployment at a rate significantly higher than the US, and frankly, when I think of which situation is worse, the one which leaves people working and still unable to pay their bills strikes me as more impactful than the scenario you've concocted.

(November 6, 2014 at 8:04 pm)Esquilax Wrote:

(November 6, 2014 at 7:56 pm)Heywood Wrote: An exaggerated minimum wage highlights the absurdity of believing a minimum wage can solve our social ills. If minimum wages add more buying power to some peoples pockets they have to hurt others. Minimum wage proponents would like you to think they only hurt the bottom line of businesses. This isn't true...minimum wage hurts the bottom line of businesses, but also hurts those whose labor is priced out of the market.

Look, I came in here to point out the absurdity of your argument: positing a scenario in which too much of a minimum wage can be a bad thing, does not say anything about the benefits of a reasonable minimum wage, because too much means "that amount which is excessive," and the argument in favor of the minimum wage is not the thoughtless "more money in da wage good!" caricature that you're actually arguing against with it. You're constructing a strawman there, and arguing poorly by failing to address the point at hand in favor of what amounts to nothing more than slinging mud.

Additionally, the argument you ended up making when taken to task on how poorly your overly simplistic snidery served you isn't even factually accurate; nations in which the minimum wage is high enough to live on aren't swamped with unemployment at a rate significantly higher than the US, and frankly, when I think of which situation is worse, the one which leaves people working and still unable to pay their bills strikes me as more impactful than the scenario you've concocted.

A minimum wage which is lower than prevailing market wages will have little or no adverse effects. If the economy in a country is particularly good, it is possible that full employment will exist despite the existence of a minimum wage. Your error is thinking a minimum wage has no effect or only positive effects when there are adverse effects as well.

(November 6, 2014 at 8:11 pm)Heywood Wrote: A minimum wage which is lower than prevailing market wages will have little or no adverse effects. If the economy in a country is particularly good, it is possible that full employment will exist despite the existence of a minimum wage. Your error is thinking a minimum wage has no effect or only positive effects when there are adverse effects as well.

Your error is presuming to know what I am thinking. Most things come with a cost and a benefit; it's the job of a rational person to be able to analyze those and select those options that present the highest benefit for the lowest cost. On the minimum wage question, I find that the cost in government dependency and poverty does not outweigh the benefit of having a lower or non-existent minimum wage.

Additionally, I see no response to the meat of my post, regarding your poorly structured reductio ad absurdum above; I take it this means you accept that it was a strawman?