Christians: you guys were just human lets just say god did it and its his will
Scientists: give us a while and we can figure it out
Christians: wait don't do that gods work is supposed to be mysterious.
Scientists: well look at that it just happens in nature no god required.
Christians: lairs you know god created it just say it.
Scientists: god had to part in it.

(November 7, 2014 at 4:12 pm)Parkers Tan Wrote: Emotions are often beyond the purview of reason.

I've seen some pretty convincing arguments that emotions can be understood by seeing them as thermodynamic functions in the brain. And as the brain is so complicated we haven't figured out the details of them yet.

That said, when you start to look at people's behaviour, lots of seemingly irrational acts, especially those committed by a noticeable portion of society, can be explained to a degree by evolutionary instincts confused by modern society. Pack behaviour's an obvious one. Party political loyalty is a good example of pack instinct allowing emotions to override your rational thoughts.

Also, could we not say that some things, like sensation, are pre-rational? And I know in my own case that mystical experiences are ineffable. They simply cannot be broken down into the concepts of ordinary consciousness.

(November 10, 2014 at 9:48 am)ChadWooters Wrote: Also, could we not say that some things, like sensation, are pre-rational? And I know in my own case that mystical experiences are ineffable. They simply cannot be broken down into the concepts of ordinary consciousness.

No - that would be argument from ignorance.

I would go as far as to say emotions and belief being above reason vastly is the biggest cause by far of most harms in the world. If everyone could embrace reason, it wouldn't matter if what you were saying sounded nice or appealing, but rather if it was the truth or not. That's something I've been unfortunately learning in my recent course about communication and public speech, it doesn't matter that much if you are right or not, you just have to sound convincing and captivate people. That's one of the biggest problems our societies face.

(November 10, 2014 at 9:48 am)ChadWooters Wrote: Also, could we not say that some things, like sensation, are pre-rational? And I know in my own case that mystical experiences are ineffable. They simply cannot be broken down into the concepts of ordinary consciousness.

But does that lead you to wonder about how consciousness is configured in order to give you your ordinary consciousness under most circumstances? It's a mystery, isn't it? Have you traded your mystery for an interpretation of its meaning? Do you totally identify exclusively with your ordinary, waking consciousness? On what basis do you decide what is you and what is other, and can there be anything that is other which is also in you?

“If everything on earth were rational, nothing would happen.”

― Fyodor Dostoyevsky

If it is above our understanding, there isn't much reason to trust it. Certainly no reason to claim its goodness with the conviction that followers have.

It never ceases to amaze me that on the one hand, a person can claim some phenomena or entity to be ineffable, and then in the same breath, describe it's qualities.

(November 10, 2014 at 7:44 pm)Cthulhu Dreaming Wrote: It never ceases to amaze me that on the one hand, a person can claim some phenomena or entity to be ineffable, and then in the same breath, describe it's qualities.

Some could say, as some do with God, that we can only approach something that is ineffable by saying what it is not, a via negativa of sorts.