What are your opinions about Ukraine and their current civil war? who is right? who is justified? who's the victim? who benefits?

(November 10, 2014 at 5:21 pm)simplemoss Wrote: What are opinions in Ukraine and there current civill war? who is right? who is justified? who's the victim? who benefits?

Ukraine is the victim, Russia is the aggressor through proxies.

The Russians are throwing their weight around, and using tactics from history's playbooks.

"Right" is what the side that wins at the end claims afterwards to have done. Russia is acting more coherently, astutely, decisively and rationally than both ukraine, the feckless and hapless pawn, and the US, who sought to roll back Russian sphere of influence until Russia completely loses the ability to assert itself as an independent major global power, so is more likely to win the current crisis. So long as Russia continues to act more coherently and astutely than those who seeks to dismantle the Russian empire (ukraine is really a battle in that struggle) Russia is likely to eventually win the current dismantle/preserve russian empire struggle between US and Eastern European states on the one side, and Russia/china/Germany on the other, and therefore "right" is more likely to be what Russia would say in the future about what she is doing now. History's playbook should have told contemporaries that.

History's playbook says no dirty tricks ever invented ever becomes obsolete. But some become temporarily unsuitable or inconvenient for one side to use. When this happens the side finding it inconvenient or unable to use a dirty trick will jump up and down to point out how the other side continues to use it, in an effort to make virtue out of necessity and claim moral high ground for not using what it is unable to use. But as soon as it becomes convenient to use the same trick again, and that will certainly happen and sooner than later, it will use the tactic it just condamed with gusto.

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(November 10, 2014 at 5:22 pm)Beccs Wrote:

(November 10, 2014 at 5:21 pm)simplemoss Wrote: What are opinions in Ukraine and there current civill war? who is right? who is justified? who's the victim? who benefits?

Ukraine is the victim, Russia is the aggressor through proxies.

Rational aggressor is better to have for the sake of sound international order than victims of own overreach.

(November 10, 2014 at 5:22 pm)Beccs Wrote:

(November 10, 2014 at 5:21 pm)simplemoss Wrote: What are opinions in Ukraine and there current civill war? who is right? who is justified? who's the victim? who benefits?

Ukraine is the victim, Russia is the aggressor through proxies.

Really? I'd say that the Ukraine is the rope in a tug of war between the West and Russia, but victim of Russia's aggression? Probably, but I'd also add that they're a victim of the west's meddling too.

The US has reneged on pretty much every agreement with Russia regarding NATO expansion, to the point that it now sits at Russia's doorstep. What we all expected I'm not sure.

The west engineered the over throw of a democratically elected government in Ukraine, like it or not, it was a democratically elected government......now, let me ask you, if Russia had tried to exert similar influence over, say, Mexico, how do you think the US would react?

The US and the EU are being played like fools, and as far as I can see, there isn't a fat lot of good they can do about it.

The U.S. is not being played like a fool. The U.S. actually started the game against everyone else's wishes, thinking it is a easy game to win and expects to profit greatly from and the anticipated victory. But subsequently the U.S. has been playing the game like a fool, and is being trounced by the unwilling and supposedly weak russia which the U.S. didn't think stood a chance.

The U.S. thought it's hand was a royal flush, everyone else had no hand, and no one else could possible know better than the U.S. how to play this game. It turns out Russia's hand was much stronger than the U.S. knew, and Putin knew how to play the game much better than the U.S.. All the sanctions are just a face saving disguise meant to obscure the fact that the U.S. lost a game it thought it would win handily, and had no idea how to deal with contingency at all.

The big lesson should be, don't provoke the use of force in a region where you cannot yourself project it.

Whether that will sink in inside the Situation Room remains to be seen.

You can not risk projecting force where a another power with huge nuclear arsenal thinks it's own ability to secure its own backyard is under threat.

In effect, America has no credible ability to project hard power to the location where America chose as the next battle in rolling back russian influence and taking apart russian empire. Russian has an overwhelming ability to project hard power there. That is the reality on the ground.

But it appears to me those Americans who sought the anti-russia putsch in Ukraine either were so amateurish that they didn't realize what the reality on the ground were, or the made the same idiotic calculation the japanese had made prior to Pearl Harbor, which is to assume the enemy, in this case russia, despite greater relevant material powers, is so morally weak that it would fold if hit hard once rather thst rise up to defend its own vital interests.

Obviously Russian now failed to live up to American expectation just as the U.S. in 1942 failed to live up to japanese expectation. Both russia now and US then recognized the relevent balance of power in the arena where their opponent chose to attack them actually favored themselves and there was no need to accept an attack upon their own security and international status.

(November 11, 2014 at 4:43 pm)Chuck Wrote: The U.S. is not being played like a fool.

(November 11, 2014 at 4:43 pm)Chuck Wrote: The U.S. thought it's hand was a royal flush, everyone else had no hand, and no one else could possible know better than the U.S. how to play this game. It turns out Russia's hand was much stronger than the U.S. knew, and Putin knew how to play the game much better than the U.S.. All the sanctions are just a face saving disguise meant to obscure the fact that the U.S. lost a game it thought it would win handily, and had no idea how to deal with contingency at all.

So...it is then?

Or, should we use another term? As you used the Poker analgy, would "donk" be better?

Putin has made the US, and the EU (despite what many many might think in the US, Ukraine is actually in Europe) look incredibly foolish. Doesn't matter which way you flower it up mate.

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(November 11, 2014 at 8:09 pm)Chuck Wrote: You can not risk projecting force where a another power with huge nuclear arsenal thinks it's own ability to secure its own backyard is under threat.

In effect, America has no credible ability to project hard power to the location where America chose as the next battle in rolling back russian influence and taking apart russian empire. Russian has an overwhelming ability to project hard power there. That is the reality on the ground.

But it appears to me those Americans who sought the anti-russia putsch in Ukraine either were so amateurish that they didn't realize what the reality on the ground were, or the made the same idiotic calculation the japanese had made prior to Pearl Harbor, which is to assume the enemy, in this case russia, despite greater relevant material powers, is so morally weak that it would fold if hit hard once rather thst rise up to defend its own vital interests.

Obviously Russian now failed to live up to American expectation just as the U.S. in 1942 failed to live up to japanese expectation. Both russia now and US then recognized the relevent balance of power in the arena where their opponent chose to attack them actually favored themselves and there was no need to accept an attack upon their own security and international status.

I am guessing you're American Chuck?

There are more players in action here than just the US and Russsia my friend.

(November 10, 2014 at 6:36 pm)Parkers Tan Wrote: The Russians are throwing their weight around, and using tactics from history's playbooks.

Have you seen the leaders of the new Ukrainian government or do you just believe what American news tells u? Its a Neo nazi regime, that USA has given over 5 billion too support.

Are the swatikas and the goosestepping not a big enough clue?

The usa and the EU paid Neo nazis too organize a coup. Yet for some reason American media only depicts Putin as some kind of stalinistic figure who controls all Russian media and is invading Ukraine in response their " freedom" protests that was organized by solely college students. And all those poor "students" wanted was too be free from Communist oppression.

Even though Communist Russia has been abolished for decades