When the grand jury announces it's decision soon what do you think the people of that town will do if they are not happy with the decision? The cops are already rolling in their assault vehicles, the National guard is on standby, they don't stand a chance. I read a blow by blow about what happened and from that I think the cop won't be charged.

Manowar

When people receive preferential treatment and are not held accountable for their actions you have anarchy.

The people will protest and the fucking cops will provoke them to violence.

I agree with you. The cop will get away with murder. They almost always do.

(November 19, 2014 at 10:47 am)Manowar Wrote: When the grand jury announces it's decision soon what do you think the people of that town will do if they are not happy with the decision? The cops are already rolling in their assault vehicles, the National guard is on standby, they don't stand a chance. I read a blow by blow about what happened and from that I think the cop won't be charged.

Manowar

There will be some angry people who riot. There will be some happy people who think they now have an excuse or opportunity to loot. I've been in the middle of riots and observed they contain both happy and angry people.

Don't be surprised if this spreads beyond Ferguson.

I imagine if the grand jury decided a prosecution of the cop is not in order...the feds will step in a do their own prosecution....especially if rioting starts to happen in other cities. We must have ourselves a scapegoat and the feds will see to it that we get what we must have.

You're right, either way the cop don't stand a chance. A sacrificial lamb is needed (Darren Wilson).

(November 19, 2014 at 12:44 pm)strawdawg Wrote: You're right, either way the cop don't stand a chance. A sacrificial lamb is needed (Darren Wilson).

I think the sacrificial lambs are the black folks that are unjustly harassed, arrested and shot. I would not put our police force in the USA as "sacrificial lambs" they are closer to militant groups.

I think this preemptive bullshit on the states part is racist. It is more blaming the victim and assuming the worst of a minority. It solves nothing about conditions to ignore what caused the riots after Rodney King is the same thing that caused the reaction to the shooting of Brown.

These assholes didn't have a preemptive "Dont riot or destroy private property during the up coming pumpkin festival" Or "Dont riot or destroy property after your college or pro hockey team loses".

The other sick part of all this I am seeing a trend on, is some claiming liberals are the real racists. This is sample rate error and selection bias. Yes you can find people who vote democrat who voted for Clinton but hate blacks as much as Tea Party nuts, certainly not impossible.

You can find black voting republicans, but you can also find southern blacks who while voted for Obama also voted against gay marriage.

But the the numbers about how lack of good pay, lack of economic stability, and higher arrest and prison rates are numbers not in dispute. Blacks and Latinos are still ratio wise affected by poverty and crime and economic disparity. It isn't that blacks or Latinos commit crimes at a higher ratio than whites, that is a myth. The simply get arrested more and punished more harshly.

I do think there IS a growing desire of more people to not want race to be an issue. You do see even younger republican and libertarian voters not get stuck on gay or race issues. But you are still talking about old money and old power still holding the cards. Not as always being intentional but a climate.

The other hypocrisy about Tea Party and gun nutters is that they will rightfully point out an over weaponized police force, and even rightfully bitch about police abuse or government abuse. Ruby Ridge comes to mind. The two nuts who murdered the cops and shot the guy in the Walmart certainly hated cops. So why do they want to have it both ways? Why when a white person complains about police abuse is right, but when a black person fears police they suddenly become "thugs"?

What is going on here in reality? Is someone wrong for saying "blacks should not tear up their own shit"? No, you even hear blacks say that. And they are not wrong of course. So if we agree riots don't help then why do they happen?

Why did the Russian revolution happen? Why did the French Revolution happen? Why do Somali pirates kidnap people? What drives a human to steal a loaf of bread? CONDITIONS, all those things happen because of conditions. You put people in bad economic conditions and you do not address those conditions that population is always going to get to the point of reacting to those conditions.

Now if we are going to be fair to both the community and cops, then WE have to accept the conditions as the cause and accept race as an issue before we can move on to race not being an issue. If whites or blacks want to not have to fear cops, then economics will allow people more stability which will reduce anxiety and fear. If cops don't have to fear blacks or whites having guns, or weapons, then they do not have to be trained to fear the worst. But you cannot have it both ways. You cannot say "no rules no rules" when it comes to guns, then complain about police being over armed. It is unreasonable to expect law to be armed with water pistols if everyone is armed with unlimited clips or assault rifles and almost no control of the volume of both legal and illegal guns availability.

Democrat or republican, there still is a deep seeded xenophobia of minorities that until accepted will not solve problems. I think one of the biggest things that can help long term is understanding that "minority" is a number and is also geographical and a time frame issue. Our society's demographics are changing and whites in the future will be the new minority.

If one thinks it should not be about race, that is great and I do agree. The two things we can do as a society are first to accept that it is an issue, and at the same time address ECONOMICS for everyone. You do those things long term blacks and whites will not fear each other nor will we have to fear law enforcement. So the only real dispute becomes how do we get to that point?

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I will say this, the lack of transparency such as Wilson hiding his report and literally putting nothing in it in detail pisses me off. Now I have been hearing crap about blaming the grand jury if there is no indictment, hard to blame them if they are presented a one sided argument with no transparency. One of two things are going on, or both. The cops are circling the wagons because that is what cops do, or you still have a climate of power controlled by mostly white people who are a mix of bigots, or whites who fail to see race as an issue.

I don't say this as "all whites are bigots" I think in terms of collective climate of both intentional and unintentional ignorance.

You are a victim of the news media bias. I have read the F.B.I. statistics on crime and blacks are 13.1 percent of the population yet they commit 70% of the violent felony's in this country.

(November 19, 2014 at 12:44 pm)strawdawg Wrote: You're right, either way the cop don't stand a chance. A sacrificial lamb is needed (Darren Wilson).

Oh stop. This does not have to be a race issue. To me if we are giving Wilson the benefit of the doubt he was STILL WRONG, and not even intentionally if you want to go that far.

Cops can tell you they see all sorts of danger every day, you do that over and over and over and over, that society is going to be conditioned to train that law enforcement to assume the worst. You do that then you condition them to dominate from the first contact.

Now some here want to make it all about what happened at the car. BULLSHIT, once Brown was running away there was no excuse to continue firing. And the other witnesses are consistent in that even when he turned around, he was NOT rushing Wilson. One witness described it as a stumble.

No one has yet to explain how a call over petty theft should cause a cop to approach a suspect assuming they had just committed a murder? I have thrown my wallet at a cop and still ended up in the back of the car alive. I have seen others assault cops and again, still end up in the back of the car alive.

I find it sick that a guy goes into a movie theater murders several people and ends up in the back of a police car without a scratch. Brown may have resisted fine, but after he was fleeing, Wilson's fear which may have been in that moment went to anger.

I have seen myself and so have plenty of people both black and white, see cops get dominate and even needlessly angry. So even without Wilson being a racist and even if one wants to claim he didn't want to do it, the climate and conditions and his training still lead him to that end. I cannot give Wilson a free pass all the way considering how the aftermath played out and especially firing shots while Brown was running away.

The most important thing for both cops AND blacks AND whites is to stop thinking about one moment in time. These events happen as a result of long term conditions.

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(November 19, 2014 at 2:12 pm)strawdawg Wrote: You are a victim of the news media bias. I have read the F.B.I. statistics on crime and blacks are 13.1 percent of the population yet they commit 70% of the violent felony's in this country.

No. Selection bias and sample rate error. You are looking at arrest records and prison population. That has nothing to do with the totality of ANY given population. Blacks and Latinos do not commit anymore crimes at a higher rate than whites. They simply get arrested more and punished more harshly.

Now you want me to take race out of this issue? Ok, if you lived in Israel who do you think is going to be MORE likely to be profiled or arrested, a Jewish majority, or an Arab minority(even if that individual has done nothing wrong)? Who do you think is more likely to have more fear of law in Israel, a Jewish majority or an Arab minority?

Now do I think all Jews are bigots in stating that? No, but the conditions are still there that produce that. It still is stupid to keep blaming everyone else.

I would say the same about how a Sunni majority is more likely to treat Shiites than Sunnis.

70% does not denote a higher crime rate by blacks. 70% only denotes a higher rate of arrest and convictions. You are merely twisting numbers to suit yourself to ignore a real issue.

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Take the world's population into account when you talk about crime. There is always going to be with any population a ratio of crime because evolution produces it no matter what. Flawed logic however can cause those powers to over police one segment of that society more than others.

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(November 19, 2014 at 11:53 am)Minimalist Wrote: The people will protest and the fucking cops will provoke them to violence.

I agree with you. The cop will get away with murder. They almost always do.

Um again, this still is unfair to the totality of long term problem solving.

Blacks DO have a right to fear cops. But I would also agree, for non political and non Tea Party bigoted reasons, that our police ARE over armed.

Do cops circle the wagons? HELL YA, I saw it personally myself. Used to work at a 7-11, cops were in and out all the time. One day on my off day, I pulled up on a single car accident not knowing who was in the car. Pulled an off duty cop out of the car and noticed an empty booze bottle on the floor. His buddies took my statement at the time. Got a summons for his court date. But while waiting for him to be called, one of his same buddies came up to me and said "we don't need you to testify". Code for, "If you do we know where you live". I didn't stick around.

But although those things do happen, I still don't think most cops set out to do that.

My take on Wilson isn't as much that he is a bigot, moreso society trained him to be dominate and fear the worst. I do think he went from fear to anger and simply got pissed and went too far. I do think race did play into his conditioning even if you want to claim he was not a bigot.

I am most concerned with how the process has been lopsided from the start.

Quote: I've been in the middle of riots and observed they contain both happy and angry people.

Kristallnacht? I didn't think you were that old, Woodie.