(November 19, 2014 at 12:36 pm)Godschild Wrote:

(November 19, 2014 at 11:39 am)FatAndFaithless Wrote: You're claiming to know what is going on in other peoples' minds, despite the multitudes of christians and christian denominations that are agnostic, and very openly speak about having doubts and questions.

You can take your bald assertions and shove 'em.

A Christian that does not know God exists can have no relationship with Him, thus nullifying there claim. John 3:16 states this very idea.

GC

John 3:16 it doesn't work
Deception 1: For God so loved the world, (1 John plainly states: “Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.” So, on the one hand we are told God loves the world only to be again told for Christians not to love the world. Since, in both cases the Greek word here is κόσμον, one is feed a flat out contradiction especially in light of the statement of Jesus “Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.” Perfection is not contradiction!
Secondly, if God really loves the world, he would not have destroyed it in the flood of Noah. Love and destruction are totally antonyms.)

Deception 2: …that He gave His only begotten Son, (In Genesis 6:2 we are clearly told: “that the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were beautiful; and they took wives for themselves, whomever they chose.” Just as the Hebrew states: בְנֵי־הָאֱלֹהִים וַיִּרְאוּ God already had “sons” plural! So one must wondered, even if the Hellenistic Greek writer of John did not understand the Hebrew text, he surly had the LXX which clearly states “οἱ υἱοὶ τοῦ θεοῦ”. While Christians get all choked up about God giving his only son, Jesus, they need to read and believe their Bibles more!)

Deception 3: …that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, (The problem posed here is the fact that orthodox Christian dogma states ( as based on Jesus and the New Testament) that the soul of the non-believer will suffer for eternity in the fires of torment. The Greek word here is “ἀπόληται” clearly means “to destroy fully (reflexively, to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively -- destroy, die, lose, mar, perish”. So which is it? The dead according to both atheists and Jehovah Witnesses are simply fully destroy meaning no eternal soul / nothingness. So, we could say that John 3:16 supports the ahteist view of life too!)

Deception 4: …but have eternal life. (The propaganda sold in this verse is to an ancient world where the average person making it to the age of 30 was considered old where a simple abscessed tooth could mean certain death, to work miracles and not die was to be like the gods themselves (to argue that “ζωὴν αἰώνιον” means that the dead believer lives forever in Heaven is not only a contradiction of terms, but really begs the question all over again as to what not being destroyed and living forever plainly means). When one considers the older Hebrew stories of Enoch, Moses and Elijah along with the Greek story of the miracle worker Apollinus of Tyana who is claimed also to have never died. The false claim in eternal life in John 3:16 is given even more credence as it was preached to the superstitious and mostly literate masses of the Greco-Roman empire to gain fast converts in a ancient world that swam in a sea of religions and promises of hope. End the end, it was Christianity which out sold its fellow religions with verses like John 3:16 which gave more hope to its superstitious world.

(November 19, 2014 at 12:36 pm)Godschild Wrote:

(November 19, 2014 at 11:39 am)FatAndFaithless Wrote: You're claiming to know what is going on in other peoples' minds, despite the multitudes of christians and christian denominations that are agnostic, and very openly speak about having doubts and questions.

You can take your bald assertions and shove 'em.

A Christian that does not know God exists can have no relationship with Him, thus nullifying there claim. John 3:16 states this very idea.

GC

Then he's not holding up his end of the relationship. It takes two people making equal effort to have a relationship. If he's the one who wants one, yet he makes himself hard to find, then he fails. We asked, and did not receive, despite there being a erse saying ask and ye shall receive. Seek and ye shall find. Knowck, and the door shall be opened.

(November 19, 2014 at 11:46 am)Chad32 Wrote:

(November 19, 2014 at 11:09 am)Godschild Wrote: It means that your position doesn't change my eternal destination. As for going to hell, I state what scripture says, if that bothers you you might want to find out why it bothers you.

GC

We know exactly why it bothers us. It's blackmail. Coercion. We're made to think we have a choice in the matter, but when the choices are worship me for eternity or be tortured for eternity, that's the definition of blackmail. Which is highly unethical. If you really think that's how it is, then your god is evil.

Justice requires that if someone accepts Christ as their savior and receives eternal reward, then justice requires an eternal punishment for eternally unforgiven sin against a Holy and Righteous God. This means there are no other choices to be given, there is a limit to what can be offered when the requirements are so specific. Seeing now how this is not blackmail, if hell still bothers you I would think you would want to find out truly why.

Quote:You might say that Yahweh can't be evil, because god is inherently good. Then I say Yahweh is not a god. He does things that are obviously evil, so instead of trying to justify his actions because a god is good by definition, then the idea that Yahweh is a god is brought into question.

What makes you think you can judge an omniscient God, scripture says the clay pot has no right to say to the potter why did you make me into this shape. The creator has the right to His plan without question, so your judgment that God is evil holds no water.

GC

(November 19, 2014 at 12:41 pm)Godschild Wrote: Am I judgmental or am I only stating what scripture reveals to us about our condition.

GC

This is a judgment:

(November 17, 2014 at 2:57 am)Godschild Wrote: The eternal punishment is justified.

This is a judgment:

(November 17, 2014 at 3:15 pm)Godschild Wrote: Why is it atheist are so objectionable to stating the truth.

GC

This is judgmental:

(November 17, 2014 at 4:02 pm)Godschild Wrote: Have you asked God to forgive you through Jesus Christ, no, then you really do not desire the forgiveness.

This is judgmental:

(November 17, 2014 at 4:09 pm)Godschild Wrote: The fault of not understanding the trinity is yours not mine.

I could go on, but you get the point. In case you don't, here it is: you're a hypocrite.

(November 19, 2014 at 11:18 am)Brian37 Wrote:

(November 19, 2014 at 11:09 am)Godschild Wrote:

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Do you actually know what Peter was saying, if so please explain.
I've given my reasons for my belief on this forum many times, answering questions that are a challenge to my beliefs doesn't always require me to state the same thing over and over.

GC

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It means that your position doesn't change my eternal destination. As for going to hell, I state what scripture says, if that bothers you you might want to find out why it bothers you.

GC

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Yes you have given us your reasons. So? We get "reasons" from other sects of Christianity, as well as "reasons" from Muslims and Jews as to why they believe what they believe. So?

"My holy book says" all religions do this.
"It is old and traditional" all religions do this.
"Most people have some belief" most people once believed the earth was flat.

Having a "reason" does not constitute fact. Yes you have "reasons" that are really nothing more than fishing for excuses.

I make no excuses for what I know nor do I need any, it is the atheist who needs the excuses not to believe, if you don't believe this then you haven't been paying attention to what you and your fellow atheist are saying.

GC

(November 19, 2014 at 1:08 pm)Godschild Wrote: What makes you think you can judge an omniscient God, scripture says the clay pot has no right to say to the potter why did you make me into this shape. The creator has the right to His plan without question, so your judgment that God is evil holds no water.

GC

This is what is worst about religion: if gives otherwise good men permission to abdicate their responsibility to maintain a thoughtful morality.

(November 19, 2014 at 1:10 pm)Parkers Tan Wrote:

(November 19, 2014 at 12:41 pm)Godschild Wrote: Am I judgmental or am I only stating what scripture reveals to us about our condition.

GC

This is a judgment:

(November 17, 2014 at 2:57 am)Godschild Wrote: The eternal punishment is justified.

This is a judgment:

(November 17, 2014 at 3:15 pm)Godschild Wrote: Why is it atheist are so objectionable to stating the truth.

GC

This is judgmental:

(November 17, 2014 at 4:02 pm)Godschild Wrote: Have you asked God to forgive you through Jesus Christ, no, then you really do not desire the forgiveness.

This is judgmental:

(November 17, 2014 at 4:09 pm)Godschild Wrote: The fault of not understanding the trinity is yours not mine.

I could go on, but you get the point. In case you don't, here it is: you're a hypocrite.

I can do the same to all you say, doesn't make you judgmental in all you say, and the same applies to me, and the one who can't understand this is truly the hypocrite.

GC

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(November 19, 2014 at 1:14 pm)Parkers Tan Wrote:

(November 19, 2014 at 1:08 pm)Godschild Wrote: What makes you think you can judge an omniscient God, scripture says the clay pot has no right to say to the potter why did you make me into this shape. The creator has the right to His plan without question, so your judgment that God is evil holds no water.

GC

This is what is worst about religion: if gives otherwise good men permission to abdicate their responsibility to maintain a thoughtful morality.

You really have no comprehension of what is right.

GC

No one can do something in a limited time to deserve eternal punishment or reward. If someone thinks eternally punishing people must happen in exchange for eternally rewarding others, then take away the eternal reward. You cannot justify eternal punishment. There are a plethora of other options to be given. A simple one is punishment and reward according to what you do. The better you are, the more reward you get. The worse you are, the more punishment you get. Either way it eventually ends, because your life would be finite. What's left is just continued existence in a neutral area, or you could send them back to earth for another life.

It is blackmail. It is evil. You seem to think there's some other reason because you're too busy trying to justify Yahweh's actions to give a legitimate reason why they're just. It's eternal because he never forgives people who die without worshiping him? Holding an eternal grudge does not paint anyone in a good light.

I wonder why you think it "truly" bothers me, after I've clearly given reasons. Apparently you don't know what the words grudge or blackmail means, because you denied that he hold grudges and blackmails people. Why do you think hell bothers me?

What makes you think you can judge Yahweh? You claim he's good, right? We're both using the same source to claim he's good or evil. You say he's good because he claims he's good. I say he's evil because his actions are evil. we're both making judgement calls. If I made a clay sculpture, and gae it free will, it has the right to ask whatever it wants. If I didn't want it asking questions and acting independently, I shouldn't have given it free will.

Still waiting for an explanation as to why God couldn't jsut forgive us himself, without the need of bringing his alter-ego down for torture and crucificxion. He created the rules, apparently, why not just change them?

(November 19, 2014 at 1:08 pm)Godschild Wrote: Justice requires that if someone accepts Christ as their savior and receives eternal reward, then justice requires an eternal punishment for eternally unforgiven sin against a Holy and Righteous God. This means there are no other choices to be given, there is a limit to what can be offered when the requirements are so specific. Seeing now how this is not blackmail, if hell still bothers you I would think you would want to find out truly why.

(Bolding mine, for emphasis)

This implies that god has no freedom to act of his own accord. I cannot imagine a scenario in which god is required to do something because he has no choice, or where he is limited in what he can do. He is god, and no other being can force him to do anything he does not wish to do. Any action he takes is good by definition, because god is above all other beings and thus not limited by their morals or standards.

God could have resolved the issue of sin any number of ways. The simplest would have been to offer outright forgiveness to those who sought it sincerely. Or to take Adam and Eve's lives as payment for sin and started over. Or even change human ethical and moral laws to absolve them of wrongdoing. There is literally no choice that was not available to god. You can say that he chose to offer himself/his son as a sacrifice in order to redeem mankind and that is what he chose, and you can say that you find his actions just and perfect. But I don't accept that he had no choice, or was required to take that route, or that his options were limited. And I think his chosen solution is convoluted and does not make much sense, considering all of the other options on the table.