I would just like to clarify things a bit. I don't deliberately decide to sit in judgment on these people. It is just a reaction I have, and I can't seem to help it. It is really only when someone is overtly religious, talking about their God in every other sentence, really making it obvious that they are a True Believer. I just have that reaction, like if they told me they had a magic invisible unicorn in their pocket or something. I come to realize they aren't joking and it's like we are from different planets. I just feel weird and sad, knowing they really believe this and knowing I cannot relate to them very well.

I can hang out with them, talk to them, but there is just this gulf that makes it hard to connect. If they don't bring up religion much I can sort of not think about it, but if they do, then I seem to end up just not wanting to be around them much at all, even if they are otherwise nice and interesting and so on.

I was sitting at the booth at First Night talking with an atheist friend who shared with me the fact that he was the godfather for his nephew. Essentially his brother had a kid with whom the kid's maternal grandmother is super religious, totally upset about the kid being out of wedlock, and kind of demanded baptism. His brother did it to keep the peace kind of thing. My friend shared with me some of his guilt of being part of this thing when he knows he doesn't take it seriously but other people too. It was nice to have someone confide something like that with me. I told him that I would say the fact that you will be there instead of a religious nut should be a good thing, and you'll probably be honest and truthful to the kid and there's nothing negative about that.

On another note, later that night at a friends house I got accused of being just as bad as those fundamentalist preachers. It upset me a little because I knew I wasn't trying to convert anyone I just like to talk about it because I've been learning a lot and I love to talk about new things I learn. Unfortunately since it's such a touchy subject I guess just talking about it constitutes as preaching. :/

(December 23, 2008 at 8:18 am)EvidenceVsFaith Wrote: I wouldn't think I would necessarily have to meet someone in 'real life' to consider them a 'friend'. If only because at times I can get on really well and get to know someone a lot more online than offline. Because being online tends to break boundaries.

I have made friends online in the past but, for me, it takes a personal meet to turn that from straight respect in to something personal. I have several friends derived from online relationships ... all are atheist though.

(December 23, 2008 at 8:18 am)EvidenceVsFaith Wrote: Once again though, perhaps we are using a different definition. Since you have already explained that it takes a lot for you to consider someone a friend. Its perhaps different with personal relationships though I think.

In what way?

Kyu

I used to have a ton of friends online and eventually I got around to meeting most of them, and the ones I never got around to meeting faded away. I think there is something about the personal interface in real life as opposed to online that is lost, and that you can have meaningful online relationships in many ways. But you can't actually give them a hug, and that too me trumps online.

(January 3, 2009 at 3:58 pm)Eilonnwy Wrote: I used to have a ton of friends online and eventually I got around to meeting most of them, and the ones I never got around to meeting faded away. I think there is something about the personal interface in real life as opposed to online that is lost, and that you can have meaningful online relationships in many ways. But you can't actually give them a hug, and that too me trumps online.

To me it's simpler ... I have acquaintances online, I am genuinely friendly with (and have respect for) some of these but the limitation of places like this is that I know very little about them as people and what I do know I cannot be sure of (we all saw what Daystar did in his alternate persona and it isn't hard to be cleverer). IMO body language, face to face communication is an important aspect of a relationship ... without it I do not (cannot) give full trust because I don't know for sure who I am dealing with.

My real friends are therefore people I actually have come to know.

Kyu

I know how you feel in many ways. I go to a Catholic highschool, and i have relationships with many religious people. My close friends, however, are all atheist/agnostic. But to the point about religious friends: I can't think of any of my good friends that are religious, but i do interact with people that are religious quite often. I think of them like any other person, most of them are nice and caring, etc. but when we start talking about religion/god/beliefs i am a little put off by what they have to say and how absurd it sounds to me and it makes me not want to pursue any further relationship with them (just keep it a student to student relationship, rather than being official 'friends'). most of them i will never talk to in my life again anyway so it doesn't really bother me. Plus i realize they are still young and can change their beliefs easily. (lol i felt like an old guy saying that )

This psychologist that I have sort of just come to know..
is telling my how when she first became interested in psychology she was an athiest and then she found jesus.
what is she trying to say - that i am going to find jesus too?
god i hope not.

(January 5, 2009 at 1:57 am)CaLo Wrote: I know how you feel in many ways. I go to a Catholic highschool, and i have relationships with many religious people. My close friends, however, are all atheist/agnostic. But to the point about religious friends: I can't think of any of my good friends that are religious, but i do interact with people that are religious quite often. I think of them like any other person, most of them are nice and caring, etc. but when we start talking about religion/god/beliefs i am a little put off by what they have to say and how absurd it sounds to me and it makes me not want to pursue any further relationship with them (just keep it a student to student relationship, rather than being official 'friends'). most of them i will never talk to in my life again anyway so it doesn't really bother me. Plus i realize they are still young and can change their beliefs easily. (lol i felt like an old guy saying that )

Indeed ... I'm an ex-Rat Catcher (Catholic) and I don't see how I could be close friends with someone who strongly believed that stuff because, when you give it some real thought, they (as I suppose most Christians) are implicitly condemning you/me (the unbelievers) to an eternity in a fiery hell. Oh yeah I know they will argue all the usual crap about it being our choice 'n all but that's bullshit and they're just too locked up in their own stupid belief systems to understand that it is THEM who are condemning and not us choosing. I suppose if I avoided religion as a topic of conversation I could be friends with religious people but religion (inasmuch as I regard it as anything from a complete waste of time & effort to near absolute evil) is important to me, I don't want to avoid talking about it and it would rapidly become clear that I had no respect for that person's POV on that issue ... hardly the basis for friendship IMO.

Kyu

I suppose that I have different elements of respect.
I respect everybody firstly as people.
I can respect people for their actions etc.
and I can also respect somebody for their beliefs.

And I think with my friends there are different levels of friendship.
My friendship does not become less with somebody just because of their religion..
it's often because of what their religion dictates and it starts to impact on my relationship with them.
For instance I had this person say indirectly that atheists had no morals. I recoiled. I don't feel comfortable in talking to them.
Yet, I went out with somebody who was holding on to being Christian by a thread but it didn't bother me as such because I understood that they had come from a very religious whacko family.. and they were a good person of whom I could talk to about everything.. and he would even listen to me ramble on about my atheist stuff. he never sold his religion to me and it was fine. we still have fun as mates going out etc. I respect him not because of his faith but because of his human qualities. And he thought i wasnt going to burn in hell and thought there was always an opportunity to change.. even when i died. so meh. although my choice of men was limited and most were i think lutheran etc.. i should have adventured outside of my high school more.. seriously!

My friendships are based on the depth of conversation, enjoyment and mutual respect I experience with a person.
Respect does not mean that I 'respect' your beliefs by default, respect means that we can question each others beliefs, have a debate, and both of us come out of it without making ad hominem attacks or feeling like we've been hurt. Sometimes you need to know when to back down though, and that really takes a little intuition.

I got into a discussion with a friend recently, which started by me pondering whether the current procedure of removing part of an animals organs was cruel (desexing of cats). Unfortunately he wanted to make the claim that the simple act of even *owning* a pet was cruel (something to do with domestication and being unnatural) and yet he became defensive when I gently probed and asked questions to find out his reasons for believing this. I still don't know his real reason for asserting it.

My point is - some people make unreasonable assertions, and I think it's fair to question them if they come up in the natural course of conversation. If your friend becomes overly defensive, assuming you're not on the 'attack', then that's their problem. It comes back to that intution and knowing when to change the subject and just let something drop. When we reached that point in the conversation that I realised he was being unreasonable, I just dropped it and made a joke out of some related side-issue.

Easy to drop a subject such as animal rights, less easy with religion, and I can understand the difficulties religious views would cause in a friendship.