(November 22, 2014 at 11:44 am)YouCanCallMeDave Wrote: The very ideology and tenets of atheism...

There's an atheist ideology and tenant [sic]?

cool! Could you point them out to me please?

(November 22, 2014 at 11:44 am)YouCanCallMeDave Wrote: f you have any concern for humankind at all, you should never be a professed Atheist for that is the biggest insult to Mankind, Yourself as a valueable Human Being with intrinsic dignity and worth , and our Creator who gave you intrinsic dignity and infinite worth ... instead of the charade that you ultimately arrived from a piece of graduated Pond Scum from dead chemicals without a shred of purpose/meaning/and dignity .

Oh you wacky theists! It's a never ending barrel of laughs when you're around.

Welcome to the forum Dave! Good to see a non-judgemental theist around who totally doesn't automatically presume evil/immorality/stupidity on behalf of those who don't ascribe your particular, narrow, ill-defined and un-evidenced being in the sky.

(November 21, 2014 at 3:11 pm)Godschild Wrote:

(November 21, 2014 at 9:23 am)dyresand Wrote: my circles are a straight line. now answer me this were is the evidence for your god do not refer to the bible as it is not a valid source. can i see experience and or talk to god and it not being my subconscious.

Why isn't the Bible a valid source, because you and other nonbelievers say so, that's just plain ignorant.

You can't use a claim to prove a claim. The only source we have for biblical claims is the bible, so to invoke it is circular reasoning.

come on GC, you've been here a long time. Have you not yet grasped this very basic concept that would have thought most children at a very early age are taught? 'Evidence' backs up a claim, not simply more claims.

(November 21, 2014 at 3:11 pm)Godschild Wrote: You can't prove it's not valid.

Oh dear oh dear.

(November 22, 2014 at 1:08 pm)coldwx Wrote:

(November 22, 2014 at 12:59 pm)YouCanCallMeDave Wrote: In order--------

1. Like my addy says, my name is Dave. How de do .

Usually persons who neglect to give us some basic info are just trolls. I will withhold judgement though.

(November 22, 2014 at 12:59 pm)YouCanCallMeDave Wrote: 2. Its not a fallacy. Yes, Hitlers quotations that inferred he was a Christian is about as laughable as it comes. The TRUE person is found in the kind of fruit that he/she produces ; Hitler may have alluded to God, but his fruit showed that he desired GodLESS outcomes, philosophies, motives, and goals. Its still true today, for, many people claim they are Christians, yet they haven't separated themselves from the World and a culture of immorality . They fool themselves, but God isn't fooled cause he knows the heart. REAL Christians have surrendered themselves to the authority and control of God in their lives ; since professed Atheists have not then they are still under rule of themselves which invite all kinds of GodLESS living yet with some examples occasionally of morality and ethics .

So No True Scotsman fallacy and a double standard, thanks for confirming it for me.

(November 22, 2014 at 12:59 pm)YouCanCallMeDave Wrote: 3. Independent scientific studies (unbiased in nature) have shown that moral principles, ethics, etc... lack in professed Atheists and it should come as no surprise since they choose to pattern their life after moral relativism , maximized liberty concerning lifestyle choices, and a disdain for surrendering Oneself to the control of God which could bring about fruits of righteousness ongoingly and in many various venues as a result of desiring to want to serve God instead of Self.

Sources please or shut the fuck up. You are now committing a strawman fallacy. Atheism has nothing to do with my morals. It is simply a rejection of your assertion that god exists. And you did not answer my question. Can an atheist be a moral person? If they have the same qualities as a theist minus God then are they moral?

1. Im glad you withheld judgement then. Heres who I am : http://atheistforums.org/thread-29869.html

2. You are in error on your alleged fallacy toward myself. I explained the difference and am sorry you didn't get it.

3. I don't dialogue with professed Atheists who resort to their freedom (enslavement really) of displaying their high held moral relativism in the form of 'F this and F that and F you and F it' --- I don't engage purposeful LowLifes who need to pretend that talking vile is a worthy venture .

3.a. Yes, professed Atheists CAN be moral , but their moral relativism and self serving agenda that comes from jettisoning God works against that so they end up living as they like which is typically Amoral and without a right from wrong compass. Something that is desired by such People groups.

What power does Atheism have in making a Person better in your view ? (http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/power.html) .

(November 22, 2014 at 1:39 pm)YouCanCallMeDave Wrote: 3.a. Yes, professed Atheists CAN be moral , but their moral relativism and self serving agenda that comes from jettisoning God works against that so they end up living as they like which is typically Amoral and without a right from wrong compass. Something that is desired by such People groups.

What power does Atheism have in making a Person better in your view ?

Atheism? Absolutely nothing. I was an atheist before I could even recognize myself in a mirror.

There are a myriad other factors that affect human beings regardless of their religious affiliation.

Loving upbringing, good rule of law, recognition of right and wrong (as normatively defined) etc etc.

Would appreciate if you stopped telling us what we believe though. It's not very conducive to a good conversation if you insist on telling people what they believe and they attacking them because of it.

Incidentally, have you ever visited northern or central Europe?

finally, contrary to popular belief, saying 'fuck' within your dialogue, be it online or in RL, doesn't automatically detract from the point (where relevant) being made. Though if you have a personal distaste for that particular word, you may need to grow a thicker skin.

(November 22, 2014 at 1:39 pm)YouCanCallMeDave Wrote: 2. You are in error on your alleged fallacy toward myself. I explained the difference and am sorry you didn't get it.

You basically stated that no true christian would commit those atrocities. Explain the difference between this and the Scotsman fallacy.

(November 22, 2014 at 1:39 pm)YouCanCallMeDave Wrote: 3. I don't dialogue with professed Atheists who resort to their freedom (enslavement really) of displaying their high held moral relativism in the form of 'F this and F that and F you and F it' --- I don't engage purposeful LowLifes .

I see you did not provide any sources for your assertion. I will answer your questions when you back your claims up.

(November 22, 2014 at 1:39 pm)YouCanCallMeDave Wrote: 3.a. Yes, professed Atheists CAN be moral , but their moral relativism and self serving agenda that comes from jettisoning God works against that so they end up living as they like which is typically Amoral and without a right from wrong compass. Something that is desired by such People groups.

So your view is that someone can be moral without god, but that they are not moral because they don't have god. Awesome circularity.

(November 22, 2014 at 1:39 pm)YouCanCallMeDave Wrote: What power does Atheism have in making a Person better in your view ?

I explained this already. Atheism is simply a rejection of your claim. Atheists have all different moral structures, not just moral relativism. Prove your claim and we will talk.

(November 22, 2014 at 1:54 pm)Fidel_Castronaut Wrote:

(November 22, 2014 at 1:39 pm)YouCanCallMeDave Wrote: 3.a. Yes, professed Atheists CAN be moral , but their moral relativism and self serving agenda that comes from jettisoning God works against that so they end up living as they like which is typically Amoral and without a right from wrong compass. Something that is desired by such People groups.

What power does Atheism have in making a Person better in your view ?

Atheism? Absolutely nothing. I was an atheist before I could even recognize myself in a mirror.

There are a myriad other factors that affect human beings regardless of their religious affiliation.

Loving upbringing, good rule of law, recognition of right and wrong (as normatively defined) etc etc.

Would appreciate if you stopped telling us what we believe though. It's not very conducive to a good conversation if you insist on telling people what they believe and they attacking them because of it.

Incidentally, have you ever visited northern or central Europe?

finally, contrary to popular belief, saying 'fuck' within your dialogue, be it online or in RL, doesn't automatically detract from the point (where relevant) being made. Though if you have a personal distaste for that particular word, you may need to grow a thicker skin.

1. You are correct that atheism cant offer anything substantial by way of power to live a better life , for, its too self serving and for real big inner change to occur in a Person it requires a power higher than oneself to make it a reality. You can only get so much from self help books and the like . For a murderer to be truly transformed inwardly, it requires a personal deep experience with the living Christ and weve seen this occur with the hardest of criminals. Now, that's real power to change a person.

2. You didn't start out 'an atheist'...rather, you started out being an inquisitive innocent quasi-THEIST . Heres how it most likely went down when you were very young :

If you were a real 'Atheist' you would have no reason to ask your Parents : how did all of this get here, or, why are we here ? You would automatically assume it was by accident for no reason...but...you didnt assume that. Your Parents response , based on thier philosophical bias, groomed you to believe they were telling you the truth. Then as you entered school, you got some reinforcing ideas that you were just a cosmic accident of unpurposed Pond Scum . As the years went by, and you started to adopt a self centered lifestyle based on maximum pleasure , you found atheism best suited your lifestyle choices with the added 'benefit' of no ultimate moral accountability to anyone higher than yourself. This continued into adulthood , where, the total freedom for pleasure seeking became a reality with being an adult. After many years of living in this addiction to SELF , you refuse anything which becomes a fly in the ointment to what youve chosen for yourself including : an unwillingness to look into evidence for Creation , not wanting a personal Creator to even exist , grasping at desperate philosophies and theories that many others embrace as a philosophical bias, and, a refusal to become LESS consumed with self gratification because it is 'your freedom and right' . In short, you have become a slave to Humanism which on the surface looks so appetizing to follow. Such is the deceptive lure of this faith based religion.

3. Its only the atheistic tenet of moral relativism that makes permissible the use of the F word as common verbage .. but im afraid that objectively and according to Gods standards, it is a sign of a low life person who suppresses his moral conscience in order to get what he wants or to talk as he wishes. Since Atheism is utterly fallacious and a disorder congruent with human depravity (a man made philosophy born out of pride, willful rebellion, and desired arrogance) so man can live as he likes.....usage of despicable terms only serve to help justify the suppression of his moral conscience because hes made himself his own little 'god' our of convenience. I once bought into the defeatist attitudes and language of God haters ; what God has done for me , he can do for you to if you want to overcome your Will to be a God rejector.

(November 22, 2014 at 2:22 pm)YouCanCallMeDave Wrote:

(November 22, 2014 at 1:54 pm)Fidel_Castronaut Wrote: Atheism? Absolutely nothing. I was an atheist before I could even recognize myself in a mirror.

There are a myriad other factors that affect human beings regardless of their religious affiliation.

Loving upbringing, good rule of law, recognition of right and wrong (as normatively defined) etc etc.

Would appreciate if you stopped telling us what we believe though. It's not very conducive to a good conversation if you insist on telling people what they believe and they attacking them because of it.

Incidentally, have you ever visited northern or central Europe?

finally, contrary to popular belief, saying 'fuck' within your dialogue, be it online or in RL, doesn't automatically detract from the point (where relevant) being made. Though if you have a personal distaste for that particular word, you may need to grow a thicker skin.

1. You are correct that atheism cant offer anything substantial by way of power to live a better life , for, its too self serving and for real big inner change to occur in a Person it requires a power higher than oneself to make it a reality. You can only get so much from self help books and the like . For a murderer to be truly transformed inwardly, it requires a personal deep experience with the living Christ .

Nah. I suspect you're probably talking bollocks here, and I also suspect you have absolutely no experience in palliative, psychological or indeed clinical care and rehabilitation.

You'd need to get a look at what type of murderer you're talking about. someone who murdered in a crime of passion is massively different to, say, a serial killer with psychopathy who would have a lack of empathy to his/her victims.

It's not really black and white, and certainly has nothing to do with atheism/theism. Nothing at all.

(November 22, 2014 at 2:22 pm)YouCanCallMeDave Wrote: 2. You didn't start out 'an atheist'...rather, you started out being an inquisitive innocent THEIST .

Nah. I had/have no concept of what a god is/are, so to call me a theist now or then would be about as wrong as wrong could be.

EDIT: You changed your post to say quasi-theist. I'm not sure you know what quasi means because in the context you're talking that doesn't make any sense.

(November 22, 2014 at 2:22 pm)YouCanCallMeDave Wrote: Heres how it most likely went down when you were very young :

You have no idea about anything that's happened in my life, so saying this is actually really pretty offensive and probably not very Jesus like.

(November 22, 2014 at 2:22 pm)YouCanCallMeDave Wrote: If you were a real 'Atheist' you would have no reason to ask your Parents : how did all of this get here, or, why are we here ?

Why? That's probably one of the silliest comments I've ever read on an online forum. And I'm sure you could imagine that there's been a lot.

Why would inquisitiveness = theist? If you read the rest of your post it would appear that in fact that's the antithesis of reality isn't it? If somebody told me a 'god' created everything, that would use would there be in me questioning anything?

I don't think what you've said makes any sense.

(November 22, 2014 at 2:22 pm)YouCanCallMeDave Wrote: You would automatically assume it was by accident for no reason

....what? What has atheism got to do with any of this? Atheism is a lack of belief in deities. It's got nothing to do with universal origin or indeed human origin.

(November 22, 2014 at 2:22 pm)YouCanCallMeDave Wrote: ...but...you didnt assume that. Your Parents response , based on thier philosophical bias, groomed you to believe they were telling you the truth. Then as you entered school, you got some reinforcing ideas that you were just a cosmic accident of unpurposed Pond Scum .

I'm pretty close to reporting you here. You can't say what my parents 'said' to me or what I asked them...ever. Maybe stop being so judgmental? Maybe ask people what they believe/think before presuming?

I'm not going to go into any detail because you haven't asked and don't deserve to know anything about me, but needless to say, my parents and I never discussed religion, and it's not correct either to say that both my parents are/were atheists.

(November 22, 2014 at 2:22 pm)YouCanCallMeDave Wrote: As the years went by, and you started to adopt a self centered lifestyle based on maximum pleasure , you found atheism best suited your lifestyle choices with the added 'benefit' of no ultimate moral accountability to anyone higher than yourself.

You have no right to say what lifestyle I live, doubly so because you haven't even bothered to ask me.

No definition of utility in your comment either, making it redundant.

(November 22, 2014 at 2:22 pm)YouCanCallMeDave Wrote: This continued into adulthood , where, the total freedom for pleasure seeking became a reality with being an adult. After many years of living in this addiction to SELF , you refuse anything which becomes a fly in the ointment to what youve chosen for yourself including : an unwillingness to look into evidence for Creation , not wanting a personal Creator to even exist , grasping at desperate philosophies and theories that many others embrace as a philosophical bias, and, a refusal to become LESS consumed with self gratification because it is 'your freedom and right' .

This is all speculation based on zero evidence. You are claiming to know something that it is impossible for you to know. What is with you guys and presuming to know all the facts and then jumping in head first?

If you've got evidence of this creation by all means, present it. No idea what an addiction of self is either because you've failed to define what it is you're talking about.

(November 22, 2014 at 2:22 pm)YouCanCallMeDave Wrote: 3. Its only the atheistic tenet of moral relativism that makes permissible the use of the F word as common verbage .. but im afraid that objectively and according to Gods standards, it is a sign of a low life person who suppresses his moral conscience in order to get what he wants or to talk as he wishes. Since Atheism is utterly fallacious and a disorder congruent with human depravity (a man made philosophy born out of pride, willful rebellion, and desired arrogance) so man can live as he likes.....usage of despicable terms only serve to help justify the suppression of his moral conscience because hes made himself his own little 'god' our of convenience. I once bought into the defeatist attitudes and language of God haters ; what God has done for me , he can do for you to if you want to overcome your Will to be a God rejector.

There is no such thing as atheist tenant [sic].

I don't hate any god(s) because I don't believe in any of the one's that have been presented to me.

Nice to know that, contrary to my other post, you are indeed the very same judgmental type of theist who would be least likely to get into heaven if it were real. 'low life person' just because they swear? You must be fun at parties.

(November 22, 2014 at 2:34 pm)Fidel_Castronaut Wrote:

(November 22, 2014 at 2:22 pm)YouCanCallMeDave Wrote: 1. You are correct that atheism cant offer anything substantial by way of power to live a better life , for, its too self serving and for real big inner change to occur in a Person it requires a power higher than oneself to make it a reality. You can only get so much from self help books and the like . For a murderer to be truly transformed inwardly, it requires a personal deep experience with the living Christ .

Nah. I suspect you're probably talking bollocks here, and I also suspect you have absolutely no experience in palliative, psychological or indeed clinical care and rehabilitation.

You'd need to get a look at what type of murderer you're talking about. someone who murdered in a crime of passion is massively different to, say, a serial killer with psychopathy who would have a lack of empathy to his/her victims.

It's not really black and white, and certainly has nothing to do with atheism/theism. Nothing at all.

(November 22, 2014 at 2:22 pm)YouCanCallMeDave Wrote: 2. You didn't start out 'an atheist'...rather, you started out being an inquisitive innocent THEIST .

Nah. I had/have no concept of what a god is/are, so to call me a theist now or then would be about as wrong as wrong could be.

EDIT: You changed your post to say quasi-theist. I'm not sure you know what quasi means because in the context you're talking that doesn't make any sense.

(November 22, 2014 at 2:22 pm)YouCanCallMeDave Wrote: Heres how it most likely went down when you were very young :

You have no idea about anything that's happened in my life, so saying this is actually really pretty offensive and probably not very Jesus like.

(November 22, 2014 at 2:22 pm)YouCanCallMeDave Wrote: If you were a real 'Atheist' you would have no reason to ask your Parents : how did all of this get here, or, why are we here ?

Why? That's probably one of the silliest comments I've ever read on an online forum. And I'm sure you could imagine that there's been a lot.

(November 22, 2014 at 2:22 pm)YouCanCallMeDave Wrote: You would automatically assume it was by accident for no reason

....what? What has atheism got to do with any of this? Atheism is a lack of belief in deities. It's got nothing to do with universal origin or indeed human origin.

(November 22, 2014 at 2:22 pm)YouCanCallMeDave Wrote: ...but...you didnt assume that. Your Parents response , based on thier philosophical bias, groomed you to believe they were telling you the truth. Then as you entered school, you got some reinforcing ideas that you were just a cosmic accident of unpurposed Pond Scum .

I'm pretty close to reporting you here. You can't say what my parents 'said' to me or what I asked them...ever. Maybe stop being so judgmental? Maybe ask people what they believe/think before presuming?

I'm not going to go into any detail but needless to say, my parents and I never discussed religion, and it's not correct either to say that both my parents are/were atheists.

(November 22, 2014 at 2:22 pm)YouCanCallMeDave Wrote: As the years went by, and you started to adopt a self centered lifestyle based on maximum pleasure , you found atheism best suited your lifestyle choices with the added 'benefit' of no ultimate moral accountability to anyone higher than yourself.

You have no right to say what lifestyle I live, doubly so because you haven't even bothered to ask me.

(November 22, 2014 at 2:22 pm)YouCanCallMeDave Wrote: This continued into adulthood , where, the total freedom for pleasure seeking became a reality with being an adult. After many years of living in this addiction to SELF , you refuse anything which becomes a fly in the ointment to what youve chosen for yourself including : an unwillingness to look into evidence for Creation , not wanting a personal Creator to even exist , grasping at desperate philosophies and theories that many others embrace as a philosophical bias, and, a refusal to become LESS consumed with self gratification because it is 'your freedom and right' .

This is all speculation based on zero evidence. You are claiming to know something that it is impossible for you to know. What is with you guys and presuming to know all the facts and then jumping in head first?

(November 22, 2014 at 2:22 pm)YouCanCallMeDave Wrote: 3. Its only the atheistic tenet of moral relativism that makes permissible the use of the F word as common verbage .. but im afraid that objectively and according to Gods standards, it is a sign of a low life person who suppresses his moral conscience in order to get what he wants or to talk as he wishes. Since Atheism is utterly fallacious and a disorder congruent with human depravity (a man made philosophy born out of pride, willful rebellion, and desired arrogance) so man can live as he likes.....usage of despicable terms only serve to help justify the suppression of his moral conscience because hes made himself his own little 'god' our of convenience. I once bought into the defeatist attitudes and language of God haters ; what God has done for me , he can do for you to if you want to overcome your Will to be a God rejector.

There is no such thing as atheist tenant [sic].

I don't hate any god(s) because I don't believe in any of the one's that have been presented to me.

Nice to know that, contrary to my other post, you are indeed the very same judgmental type of theist who would be least likely to get into heaven if it were real.

Nahhh.... I don't do bullocks, sorry ! lol....

I have much experience in palliative care and in fact im a volunteer at my local Hospice Organization and routinely call on the infirmed and dying . So please, be careful about being presumptious --- instead just ask me right out so you don't look silly.

I haven't met a person yet who has enough faith to believe that an Atheistic Worldview / Origins is compelling and credible. But I have talked to professed 'atheists' who after 20-30 minutes of intense dialogue admit to me : ' Look Dave.... I just want to be my own god and call my own shots in life ' . Most recently , this was a verbatim response from a 71 year old Woman who lost her husband to cancer and who desired to enter the dangerous favorite American pastime of Sexual Hedonism . Shes actually become a regular acqauintence of mine whom I see on Karaoke Night.

Do tell us more what we believe, dave.

(November 22, 2014 at 2:49 pm)YouCanCallMeDave Wrote: Nahhh.... I don't do bullocks, sorry ! lol....

Everyone's gotta do something Dave. You do it quite well. Don't put yourself down.

(November 22, 2014 at 2:49 pm)YouCanCallMeDave Wrote: I have much experience in palliative care and in fact im a volunteer at my local Hospice Organization and routinely call on the infirmed and dying . So please, be careful about being presumptious --- instead just ask me right out so you don't look silly.

I have every reason to doubt you and absolutely no reason to believe you. So I'm just going to say that I don't believe you and that you, in fact, started talking about a subject you know nothing about.

I don't think you have any medical training, nor any clinical or psychological education or any interaction with patients in any professional capacity.

Funny how you request not to be judged presumptuously but yet do that in every post you've made on here in the last 2 hours or so.

(November 22, 2014 at 2:49 pm)YouCanCallMeDave Wrote: I haven't met a person yet who has enough faith to believe that an Atheistic Worldview / Origins is compelling and credible. But I have talked to professed 'atheists' who after 20-30 minutes of intense dialogue admit to me : ' Look Dave.... I just want to be my own god and call my own shots in life ' . Most recently , this was a verbatim response from a 71 year old Woman who lost her husband to cancer and who desired to enter the dangerous favorite American pastime of Sexual Hedonism . Shes actually become a regular acqauintence of mine whom I see on Karaoke Night.

I think you're a liar, and probably a troll/POE.

What's your favorite song in karaoke? Singing in public. Seems very hedonistic and self-centered.

Good that you've spoken to people though. It's good to talk out your issues, and I presume you've got a lot of them. G'day mate.