(November 26, 2014 at 7:44 pm)KevinM1 Wrote:

(November 26, 2014 at 5:18 pm)Godschild Wrote: Your seems are not facts, care to show some. Sin makes people mindless twits.

GC

Well, Nope already provided some of the relevant lines. There are a few more:

Quote:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:

3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.

They ate the fruit of the tree, their eyes were opened to reality, and god was angered/disappointed by this:

The scriptures do not say their eyes were open to reality, it does say their eyes were opened to evil, which by the way was not a reality in their world until they disobeyed God. Yes God was angered but not disappointed, He had every right to be.

Quote:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;

18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;

19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

Quote:Because they had gained knowledge, god cast them out. It's not just that they ate the fruit, but that they had gained the knowledge of life and death, good and evil.

They were cast out because the garden was preserved in it's perfection, sin would not be allowed into ever again. They were placed into a cursed world. Yes the got the knowledge and they along with us are suffering because of it. Disobedience is the why, not the action of eating the fruit, their hearts left God and they became selfish, the same as Lucifer, he got tossed because of his disobedience.

Quote:The implication of that is that, yes, god preferred that they not gain such knowledge. Otherwise, why make it forbidden? Why punish them for learning?

Again they were punished for their disobedience and yes God did not want them to have the knowledge of good and evil, to gain it they had to disobey, because of it sin entered the creation.

Again, it says this plainly, in black and white:

Quote:Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”

Quote:Man had gained understanding. Had his eyes opened.

The scriptures did not say they gained understanding, you posted the proof yourself. Their eyes were opened to good and evil, this is what God said in the verses you supplied.

Quote: And it angered god. The only reasonable conclusion is that god didn't want creations that dared disobey, dared gain knowledge that he and he alone (through circular reasoning) deemed unworthy for them to obtain. He wanted them to be sheltered children in perpetuity.

I agree God was angry and why not, His children had disobeyed and brought sin into creation, the greatest disaster ever. Right, God did not want them to become disobedient, He knew what would happen if they did. They and we are unworthy of that kind of knowledge, that knowledge has enabled man to do the most awful actions, against God and himself. Yet God loved them so much He gave them the right of choice.

Quote:It also begs the question as to why god would create such a manipulative animal to live in his garden. Dumb move if you want your creations to live just so, without any desire to disobey.

That would have eliminated the freedom of choice, the choice to love God or reject Him. An omniscient being logically can't be dumb. So your conclusion on it being a dumb move is negated.

Quote:And, just for yucks, there's nothing in Chapters 2 and 3 that describes Adam and Eve's free will as a loving gift from god. Interesting....

But, of course, all of this is a digression from the topic at hand - hell.

They had a choice, you've even stated they did, that had to come from God and the scriptures say God gives good gifts, it's bad they misused it. Good gifts are given with love.

GC

(November 16, 2014 at 2:32 pm)Ryantology (╯°◊°)╯︵ ══╬ Wrote: Punishment can take on two forms. There is the kind that a parent might administer to a naughty child in order to teach them right from wrong and help them grow into a better person, and the kind that a parent might administer to a naughty child mostly because they are stupid and brutal people who can only soothe their own crippling emotional flaws by physically beating people who are too small to fight back.

The Abrahamic religions seem to take the view that there is no such thing as an unjust punishment, because the person who makes the rules cannot, by definition, break any rules. That is why I am curious to get the opinion of a follower or two, what is the justice in eternal punishment? When a person is dead and goes into the afterlife, what is the material (or immaterial) gain of subjecting that person to an eternity of misery and horror in revenge for whatever acts that allegedly justify it?

If there is no good here, and it is just revenge for the sake of revenge, if God is inflicting pain and anguish just because he got pissed off, how can this possibly be justified as anything other than the most petty and brutal sort of revenge?

If we all live forever and hell is a result of a voluntary choice not to live with God, then I guess it's just, and God is just. The bible isn't specific about what goes on in hell. I just know that it is existence without God and it's a terrible place to be. I myself have a hard time imagining that a loving and just God would submit people who sinned on earth for, say 80 years to an eternity of unending suffering. Additionally, it's as if the devil wins by maybe getting more souls than God does.

(November 26, 2014 at 10:56 pm)Lek Wrote: I myself have a hard time imagining that a loving and just God would submit people who sinned on earth for, say 80 years to an eternity of unending suffering.

I agree and it certainly goes against the example of Jesus in the story relating to the stoning of the prostitute. Very forgiving. All that talk of coming with a sword was probably written in to appease the church fathers who wanted more influence. If Jesus is god, we have nothing to worry about. I don't worry about hypothetical improbabilities.

I'll actually grant you evil vs. reality. I don't agree with it (the shame aspect, which stemmed from their nakedness, not disobedience, as well as the language choices), but it doesn't matter. It's a minor bone of contention with the rest of it.

See, the failure of the creation story - and a lot of Christianity on the whole - is that it relies on the idea of tests. God tests his creations to deem their worthiness. But, the tests are unfair and capricious. With Adam and Eve, he creates the Tree and puts it right there, before them. He creates the serpent who tempts them. He gives them misleading information (touch the fruit and you die). It's technically true - they lose whatever immortality that's assumed in the tale - but it's stated dishonestly.

He purposely creates an environment designed to tempt his prized creations, and then gets angry when they succumb to that temptation. It's cruel. And it dovetails into the idea of eternal punishment.

God has knowingly, willingly created a system where a sizable portion of the population will suffer eternal punishment. Depending on which flavor of Christianity you believe in, one's good works may not be enough to stave off the punishment if they don't swear fealty to God. And, even better, God does what he can to keep his presence hidden. Rather than being active and visible for all to see, he "works in mysterious ways." He appears on potato chips, but let's kids die of cancer. So, no one truly knows if he exists or not. Oh, sure, the faithful will claim he does, but, well, they call it faith and not fact for a reason.

It's utterly moronic.

Why would such a powerful being feel the need to create anything? Creating something is the act of filling a deficiency. I write shitty poetry because I'm flawed, have some things I'd rather express than keep bottled up, and find it an interesting and challenging way to stave off boredom. I have a dog because I can feel lonely at times. Why did God create everything, beyond just because? There has to be a purpose, some key thing he wanted to address.

Why would such a being desire, née demand the worship of lesser creatures? What could it possibly gain him?

Why would such a being be so damn inefficient? "Hey, God, did you realize that about 50% of the people you create are destined to go to hell due to a mix of free will and you hiding over here?" "Yup, but I'm still gonna crank them out! In fact, let's up production! I bet we can add another billion by the end of the century!"

It's ridiculous. It's beyond wasteful. And it's mean. It's a flawed setup that results in eternal torture for billions.

And, again eternal punishment as an exercise is inherently flawed anyway. It's useless as a deterrent because no one knows if it actually exists, and it's not a teaching tool because you're dead.

(November 26, 2014 at 11:32 pm)whateverist Wrote:

(November 26, 2014 at 10:56 pm)Lek Wrote: I myself have a hard time imagining that a loving and just God would submit people who sinned on earth for, say 80 years to an eternity of unending suffering.

I agree and it certainly goes against the example of Jesus in the story relating to the stoning of the prostitute. Very forgiving. All that talk of coming with a sword was probably written in to appease the church fathers who wanted more influence. If Jesus is god, we have nothing to worry about. I don't worry about hypothetical improbabilities.

Yeah. I believe what the bible says which is that Jesus died to save us all. Although it may not be eternal though, we still have hell to fear.

(November 26, 2014 at 9:56 pm)whateverist Wrote:

(November 26, 2014 at 8:18 pm)dyresand Wrote: The fact is its stupid to get punished for something we had no control over such as adam and eve eating a fucking apple.

GOD ALMIGHTY: "DON'T YOU BACK SASS ME, BOY. NOW LOWER YOUR PANTS AND GRAB YOUR ANKLES!"

NO GOD NO I WONT!

It would seem that this discussion is based on the assumption that Adam and Eve were not 'freed from slavery' by the 'Serpent of the Garden'.

(November 26, 2014 at 10:26 pm)Godschild Wrote: The scriptures do not say their eyes were open to reality, it does say their eyes were opened to evil, which by the way was not a reality in their world until they disobeyed God. Yes God was angered but not disappointed, He had every right to be.

Have you ever heard or even read the Epic of Gilgamesh? It predates the oldest versions of the Torah.

Quote: The Lilith legend is ancient. It predates the Torah. The first literary reference to Lilith is found in the Sumerian tale entitled Gilgamesh and the Huluppu Tree (circa 2000 BCE), which is part of the Epic of Gilgamesh. In the tale Lilith is one of three creatures who haunt a great Huluppu tree situated in a holy garden of the gods. At the foot of the tree is a snake. The poem is remarkable in that has many similarities with the Biblical tale of Eden. First, the tree and Lilith are located in Inanna's "holy garden", evoking the image of the Garden of Eden. Secondly, the tree itself invokes an image of the Tree of Knowledge, in which Lilith is said to dwell in some later myths. Lilith is also associated with a snake that recalls the serpent that tempted Eve. The poem also associates her with a bird who flees through flight, this is also an act and capability which Lilith is said to have done.

And by the way, a large part of said epic talks about the great flood, with Gilgamesh building a boat.

(November 26, 2014 at 10:26 pm)Godschild Wrote:

(November 26, 2014 at 7:44 pm)KevinM1 Wrote: Well, Nope already provided some of the relevant lines. There are a few more:


They ate the fruit of the tree, their eyes were opened to reality, and god was angered/disappointed by this:

The scriptures do not say their eyes were open to reality, it does say their eyes were opened to evil, which by the way was not a reality in their world until they disobeyed God. Yes God was angered but not disappointed, He had every right to be.

Isn't Lucifer evil? According to the bible, Satan (an evil being) was allowed to roam the garden. That means that evil was in the garden and so evil was a reality in Adam and Eve's world. They might not have understood what evil was but if that is true, they were on the mental level of young children and shouldn't have been punished so severely. In fact, it was foolish of god to put the tree in the garden in the first place unless he wanted Adam and Eve to fail. God is a crappy, abusive parent.

(November 27, 2014 at 12:38 pm)abaris Wrote:

(November 26, 2014 at 10:26 pm)Godschild Wrote: The scriptures do not say their eyes were open to reality, it does say their eyes were opened to evil, which by the way was not a reality in their world until they disobeyed God. Yes God was angered but not disappointed, He had every right to be.

Have you ever heard or even read the Epic of Gilgamesh? It predates the oldest versions of the Torah.

Quote: The Lilith legend is ancient. It predates the Torah. The first literary reference to Lilith is found in the Sumerian tale entitled Gilgamesh and the Huluppu Tree (circa 2000 BCE), which is part of the Epic of Gilgamesh. In the tale Lilith is one of three creatures who haunt a great Huluppu tree situated in a holy garden of the gods. At the foot of the tree is a snake. The poem is remarkable in that has many similarities with the Biblical tale of Eden. First, the tree and Lilith are located in Inanna's "holy garden", evoking the image of the Garden of Eden. Secondly, the tree itself invokes an image of the Tree of Knowledge, in which Lilith is said to dwell in some later myths. Lilith is also associated with a snake that recalls the serpent that tempted Eve. The poem also associates her with a bird who flees through flight, this is also an act and capability which Lilith is said to have done.

And by the way, a large part of said epic talks about the great flood, with Gilgamesh building a boat.

Pretty much where christian flood myth came from. and also it doesn't help that Christianity uses a flood myth when other religions and cultures predates theirs in the book.