Quote:What I am asking here is why an atheist 'should' be moral.

Because if I were to be IMmoral, I'd have to sign on to one of the major religions, and - quite frankly - I just haven't got the time.

Boru

(November 28, 2014 at 2:39 pm)vincent150 Wrote: I'm discounting fear of prison as a reason because you would not say that reason to a theist.

So what, they're admitted simpletons. You wouldn't offer a last resort reason because a moral midget might take issue? Just direct them my way, I've got this.

Quote:A theist will ask why 'should' you care about people if you don't believe there's a god. This is the question that I wanted answering.

The reasons will be the same regardless of the status of belief. Personally, I don't spend much time telling people that they -should- care about others. I'm content that I (and most of us) -do-. I'd ask why this would change if there weren't a god...are we talking about those "god is the fine line between me and skullfucking a toddler" types? They get no answers, only derision- that's all they deserve.

Yeah, it is kind of a stupid question for theists to pose. They are trying to make the argument that atheists have no reason to be moral, so they won't be. But this is clearly not representative of reality. If it was, atheists would be running around killing, raping... You know, the stuff in the bible.

Non religious morality is clearly superior, if I say so my self. The guy asking the question assumes we have no reason to be moral. Or to put it in context, we won't be eternally rewarded or punished for our actions. So that makes a moral deed by an atheist better because they do it because they think it is good, not so they can later reap benefits in an afterlife.

I have heard several people who are on the brink of losing their faith, but they are honestly worrying that without religious "morality" they will not be moral. They think they will start killing people because they have no reason not to. I'm being serious, I've heard this many times. It's just part of the indoctrination that people cannot be good or moral without an external enforcer. I don't believe anyone would do these things after losing their faith. If faith really is all there is holding them in check, they have serious issues.

(November 28, 2014 at 2:55 pm)Rhythm Wrote: I'd ask why this would change if there weren't a god...are we talking about those "god is the fine line between me and skullfucking a toddler" types? They get no answers, only derision- that's all they deserve.

I would think that it says more about the individual than the group if the only thing keeping you from being a monster is what might happen in the afterlife.

Empathy may play a part in our morality, such as in deciding whether killing animals for food is right or not, but I don't think it's the whole story. I think the long and short of it is that when we contemplate something immoral, we have a gut level reaction of feeling negatively about that action, even before empathy kicks in. Empathy, rule of law, cooperation and so forth may be good justifications for being moral, but I think they come after the fact. The reason why we don't behave immorally is because we would feel anxious, uncomfortable and guilty for doing so. In some cases, too, it's just a conditioned response. We don't decide whether or not to run a stop sign at each stop sign we approach; it's just easier going along with doing the right thing to do. So we behave morally because it would be more difficult to function, psychologically, if we didn't behave morally. But morals can be culture specific. Mobsters and hit men may function just fine being constantly immoral. But not the rest of us. Still, we do fight that feeling occasionally. If you've ever pulled up to a stop light late at night, and the stop light doesn't change, we eventually pull through the red light. Even though we know it's okay in that instance to do so, many of us will still feel very uncomfortable doing so. So the long and short of it is that there is no ultimate reason why we "should" - we behave morally because it's in our nature to do so; it's what a healthy brain does. That may not be the sort of pragmatism which would satisfy the theist's question, but ultimately I think that's the explanation. We behave morally because we would feel uncomfortable in a special way if we didn't, and we're built to naturally avoid committing acts which raise that feeling in us.

I might be way off base here, but I see a parallel with "even though we evolved to be social, moral creatures, we 'should' be able to override that special gut feeling using our intelligence" and "we can intellectually choose our sexual orientation despite our natural feelings". The issue is probably even similarly split.

(November 28, 2014 at 6:09 pm)Exian Wrote: I might be way off base here, but I see a parallel with "even though we evolved to be social, moral creatures, we 'should' be able to override that special gut feeling using our intelligence" and "we can intellectually choose our sexual orientation despite our natural feelings". The issue is probably even similarly split.

Interesting comparison. There are a few similarities and it might be the case, like people can't choose not to be gay, they also can't choose not to be moral.

The way I have been thinking of it is almost like an irrational fear. For example, someone might be scared of spiders. Even though they 'know' a particular spider can't hurt them at all they are still scared to go over to pick it up. Similarly, to do something immoral, even though they know nothing will happen, people just can't do it in the same way (not that they should).

(November 28, 2014 at 12:48 pm)vincent150 Wrote: What I am asking here is why an atheist 'should' be moral.

Because I don't live in isolation.

(November 28, 2014 at 7:21 pm)Ben Davis Wrote:

(November 28, 2014 at 12:48 pm)vincent150 Wrote: What I am asking here is why an atheist 'should' be moral.

Because I don't live in isolation.

I assume what you're trying to say is that people who are immoral are going to be disliked, therefore have no friends and live in isolation. I think that is true to some extent and was definitely true in the past which is how I think we got our morals through evolution. You know there are things in your life though that you can 'get away with' but you choose not to do them anyway. Why is that?

(November 28, 2014 at 7:33 pm)vincent150 Wrote: You know there are things in your life though that you can 'get away with' but you choose not to do them anyway. Why is that?

There's only one answer to that and that is being a decent human being.