(January 3, 2015 at 11:26 am)Heywood Wrote: If you knew for sure there was a God would you continue to look down upon people who try to know and understand Him?

Which god did you have in mind?
If it is the OT god of torture,kill your kid, rape & enslave the rest then I wouldn't respect those who kowtow to it.

(January 3, 2015 at 11:20 am)Heywood Wrote: It not a situation that there could be an intelligent creator, the situation is observations of our world suggest the existence of an intelligent creator.

To you it does. But usually you're also among those, who pluck their ears at science class and refuse to look at what the majority of the civilized world states as scientific facts. If I only have one account to go by, my horizon would probably be as limited.

Well, knowing there is a creator doesn't mean it's a God anyhow. Thats just an absurd label. In his reality, making universes could be as easy as tic tac toe.

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Also, if he still exists he doesn't give a fuck about us so why should I care?

(January 3, 2015 at 11:39 am)abaris Wrote:

(January 3, 2015 at 11:20 am)Heywood Wrote: It not a situation that there could be an intelligent creator, the situation is observations of our world suggest the existence of an intelligent creator.

To you it does. But usually you're also among those, who pluck their ears at science class and refuse to look at what the majority of the civilized world states as scientific facts. If I only have one account to go by, my horizon would probably be as limited.

Maybe you could point out one scientific fact that I deny? Cause right now I don't know what you are talking about and consequently no means to defend myself against such a nebulous accusation.

(January 3, 2015 at 11:56 am)Heywood Wrote: Maybe you could point out one scientific fact that I deny? Cause right now I don't know what you are talking about and consequently no means to defend myself against such a nebulous accusation.

Sorry, if you're one of the few theists here that don't deny evolution or the earth being 4,5 billion years old. If so, it's even more puzzling to me, how anyone knowing these facts can still believe in the christian god.

This is the only time I have ever seen the hand of God:

http://youtu.be/SFSen7DRQWU

http://youtu.be/6s544sFja5k

(January 3, 2015 at 11:08 am)Heywood Wrote: Maybe not a watchmaker, but it seems that evolutionary systems require intellects.

I think you do not understand evolution. It is not a like an if then else loop. Evolution is what happens when something causes a thing to successfully breed and not other similar creatures it can be for any reason and is subtle often taking thousands or millions of years for relatively small changes.

For the vast majority of life on earth life was single simple cells, then sex happened and evolution really started.

Quote:None of you so far have been able to produce an example one evolutionary system whose details of origination we are privy too, that wasn't designed by an intellect or uses intellect as a selection component.

The failure to breed is the selection component. Could be anything that does it landslide, being ugly, not being able to reach the top branch where the leaves are the effects are small and undirected but the cumulative effect can be enormous. Intelligence is absolutely not a requirement for evolution. You are thinking of a breeding program which is something else entirely.

Quote: I make this challenge over an over again and I get crickets....then someone tries to change the subject by making comments about Thor and lightening or that God is a lousy designer because the laryngeal nerve of giraffe is circuitous or some other red herring. These kinds of counter arguments have nothing to do with the claim I am making that it appears evolutionary systems require intellect.

See my above answer. I suspect you are already aware of it but prefer your fantasy, there it is anyway.

(January 3, 2015 at 12:00 pm)abaris Wrote:

(January 3, 2015 at 11:56 am)Heywood Wrote: Maybe you could point out one scientific fact that I deny? Cause right now I don't know what you are talking about and consequently no means to defend myself against such a nebulous accusation.

Sorry, if you're one of the few theists here that don't deny evolution or the earth being 4,5 billion years old. If so, it's even more puzzling to me, how anyone knowing these facts can still believe in the christian god.

If God exists, an argument can be made that it could be the Christian God or any other God that can be imagined....including the flying speghetti monster. However that argument deserves a thread of its own and one of these days I will make it.

(January 3, 2015 at 11:26 am)Heywood Wrote: If you knew for sure there was a God would you continue to look down upon people who try to know and understand Him?

Yup.

I understand that from your point of view heywood, you are trying to do people a favour At least, I hope that's how you view it.

But to me, I don't see what difference it makes. It's a big enough leap to say there is a creator; to then try and link it to ancient story books is just utterly absurd I'm afraid. Sure it "could" be anything, and that's as far as you can get while confined to this reality. The only way we could learn about it is messages directly from the creator, and we have no way of distinguishing them from anything else. Certainly nothing so far has even come close.

The creator has worked really hard to make everything look like an un-designed mess.