I never said Solid Snake and Lara Croft didn't have any sexist archetypes, I was just giving some examples addressing different points, there's a lot that can be discussed about this, about ratings, sexism, other stereotypes, tropes, revenue, business, profits and so on, but that's something we ought to do in another thread - I'll give you credit for saying that sexism sells, it does - But I don't agree that it impacts the industry that much compared to the gameplay features you put in games as well as graphics or soundtrack. I think looking at successful games with female characters who had, as I put it before, stronger personalities or features, or higher/better representation (like the girl from HL2 or some characters from MGS like Sniper Wolf, Olga, and so on - As well as games that allow to choose gender like TES Skyrim and are inclusive) proves that sales can be hit without recurring to cheap tricks.

Meh, IDK if it's pointless. In a discussion about sexism it helps to pick one;s battles. If, by sexism, we're referring to the obvious fact that teenage boys buy games which are unrealistic and highly sexualized fantasies of both females -and- males (I don't believe for a minute that it's -just- the girl in the bikini that said teenager is drooling over...I don't even know that it's just an issue of wanting to -be- the leading man as opposed to wanting to blow him); thus game houses keep churning them out....I'm gonna give it the big



That's not sexism, it's puberty..lol. Meh, I grew out of it, now I play minecraft.

I was hoping that this thread would be about "anti-feminists in the atheist community." Boy, was THAT a silly expectation! I feel like such a n00b, having expected people to talk about the thing that the thread OP is about.

You know better by now.

I think there's no way to measure anti-feminism in the atheist community, there's no relevant statistic to prove it and on top of that atheists are a very diverse groups... Other than that, feminism also has a wide demographic and there's no common political view, no agreement on every social issue or methods to solve problems, so there's no way of saying what "anti-feminism" actually means - It may as well be "anti-misandry" or "anti-feminazism" or "anti-extreme-feminists" but simply labelling yourself as anti-feminist by definition makes you look like someone who's against the whole group. A lot of it comes from lack of knowledge on the definition or the movement itself - Those extreme "feminists" everyone talks about are no more worse than men that hold ideologies with misogynistic content, like people in far right parties who believe gender roles should be reinstated by law - Yet no one is saying all men are sexist because that would be a lie... On the other hand, if anti-feminism results in death threats, insults and petitions to get someone fired just because a female game reviewer did her job and gave her opinion on a game then I'm sorry but I don't want to be associated with those people and I think that association is not any better than the stigma to feminist ideas.

For solving the issue, I propose above all that people discuss, have rational debates without personal insults, be open to new sources and embrace the fact not everything they think is right - In the case of feminism as I've already pointed out it's easy to dismiss it using an example of tumblr and ignoring feminist literature, articles, studies on gender differences and so on but it's not the rational position to take...

Because of these facts and in case you haven't noticed I've been answering to the OP - As a male I support equity feminism because it has benefited me and women as well (even if some of you may think I'm sexist against myself which is an irrational position by itself), I also support LGBT, I support associations that fight for social justice and social equality - All of that is a part of the so called egalitarian orientation, I'm an egalitarian, and a lot of ideologies are part of it, that includes feminism but others as well - For that reason, and given that I don't have motives to think or believe in conspiracy theories that feminists are trying to rule the world, I'm not an anti-feminist but I can understand how some might choose to be so because of social stigma associated with the word.

IMO OP, you shouldn't care much about what others in the atheist community think - We are an heterogeneous group, in my case I'm a gnostic atheist and I hold a minority position as well, I've been criticized for it - Don't give a shit about it, you have critical thinking, your opinion, rationality, as long as you think for yourself and have reasons to voice a feminist position as part of an egalitarian philosophy then I fully support your decision.

It's funny that even between feminists they disagree with each other and usually form different groups - For example some decades ago there was socialist feminism, radical feminism, liberal feminism and so on - The point is that in a diverse group making assumptions is not healthy, but if we put away the misandrists who claim to hate men, equity feminist which relies only on gender equality is the most acceptable form of feminism and is the most common discussed definition of feminism you'll find - It's very easy to be anti-feminism without studying it, or reading some literature, or hearing some critics and scholars with rational thoughts and well structured arguments - This is also the Dunning-Krugger effect, people who don't have knowledge on something form opinions and think their opinion is super correct. while ignoring people who've actually gathered some information and are more educated to speak about it.

Bennyboy, now that I've addressed the topic, I'm really interested in you showing me another definition of feminism accepted by scholars - This is not an argument, rather a request, I'm interested in knowing a modernly accepted definition, you can search wherever you want - Just be sure the source is credible.

Just a quick aside: Godslayer, you do realize it takes more than money to raise a child, right? What if the parent who makes more money works more hours? Why would that parent have majority custody of a kid, when the other parent has more time to spend with him or her?

Also, militant feminism has become one of the reasons I hate labels. I'm for equal rights for all individuals, and the term "feminism" has evolved to a point where I'm uncomfortable relating to it. I think I'll just stick to my individual causes while I fight, in my own small way, for equality in general.

The way I see it, feminism gets a lot of bad press. I'm not going to deny there are man-hating old cat ladies (who get offended by ANYTHING) out there, but they are not really feminists at all and their views don't represent what is, by very definition, feminism. I think it's because we call those types of women feminists that we end up throwing "feminism" around like it's a dirty word, when really it isn't.

I see no reason for any rational-thinking atheists to oppose equality rights for women. We know abortion is not "killing" a child, it's is terminating an unconscious bundle of cells, biology and studies of animals (to me at least) completely refute the idea of females being the weaker sex. Also pre-Christian societies weren't complaining about un-chaste or "slutty" women before the obsession with the pure Virgin Mary came along.

Finally another GoT avatar.

(January 6, 2015 at 9:52 am)FatAndFaithless Wrote: Finally another GoT avatar.

To be honest, I get a little uncomfortable applying the label 'feminist' to myself or my putting my beliefs under 'feminism.' Sure, I believe in gender equality; I don't know very many people who don't believe in that. If it really was just down to that specific dictionary definition of feminism, I think everyone would gladly call themselves feminist.

But then I started to learn otherwise. You see, I'm trans and because of the issues I've had with my ex and the family courts, I'm also interested in fathers rights. I have children with my ex; I haven't seen them for years and because of child support deductions, I've been in a state of nearly constant and extreme poverty without the ability to get the stability I need to get out of that poverty. Yet, when I attempt to discuss these issues in feminist spaces, I'm told I'm derailing, I'm internalizing misogyny or that my problems aren't real problems. It was nothing but hostility towards someone who was desperate and struggling and on the verge of suicide multiple times because of those issues.

And that kind of experience opened my eyes. You see, before that I assumed feminism was an automatically benevolent thing. When I faced that kind of hostility, I started to question things and I started to see a lot of bad feminism as well. I saw Rebecca Watson labeling all athest men as misogynists (or at least any atheist who doesn't make their discussions all about social justice). I saw Anita Sarkeesian taking pop culture completely out of context, find the worst possible interpretation and harping on that interpretatio like there's no possible question. I saw Chanty "Big Red" Binx, attacking a group of men for attempting to talk about mens issues. I saw Meg Lankier-Simmons politicizing a rape threat she made to herself. I saw Adria Richards getting a guy fired becase she was evesdropping on a personal conversation he was having at a conference. I've seen self descibed feminists turn everything into rape and then turn aroud and get upset because nobody takes them seriously when they talk about rape. Yes, there are a lot of crazy people who use the title 'feminist' to justify very bad behavior and I'm really uncomfortable being associated with it.

But I don't call myself an MRA, either. Truth is, a lot of MRA's just mirror the feminists they claim to hate; some are way too extreme or crazy or hateful, others are more reasonable. I really don't like putting a label on my beliefs; I believe in equality and you can put any label on that belief system that you want.