(January 8, 2015 at 1:42 am)paulpablo Wrote:

(January 8, 2015 at 1:36 am)MysticKnight Wrote: The previous verse before that states those who turn on their backs you can kill them..then this verse states except for these people. ie. people who belong to a people you have allegiance with or people who don't want to fight you but rather want peace.

So it says basically there is no allowing you to kill people who leave Islam and don't want to fight you and are a peace with you.

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Religion is part of their identity, but their motives are politically fueled more then religion.

Well you just said the majority of terrorists are political rather than religious, yet it sounds to me like Islam is a political movement aswell as religious, if it governs how to treat other civilizations and other people en mass rather than on a personal level.
A lot of the quran speaks of your people, their people, them and us, alliances, territory. Those issues are political.

The Quran does talk about political matters but it teaches words of peace and fighting only in self defense and only allowing you to kill those who kill or those who are destroying lives...therefore the problem is not what it teaches politically.

Also this us vs them is unfair of Quran. Quran had issues with a people who oppressed the believers but it didn't say to divide from rest of humanity and in fact talked about brotherhood of humanity in other verses and the unity of humanity in other verses and talked about generally being a friend to people.

It only forbid love to those who oppressed them, drove them out their homes and were ought to kill them.

It's unfair to say that Quran created this us vs them mentality.

Quote:It only forbid love to those

Or those who were friends with people who yadda yadda yadda (all the yaddas also being pretext)

(January 8, 2015 at 2:01 am)MysticKnight Wrote:

(January 8, 2015 at 1:42 am)paulpablo Wrote: Well you just said the majority of terrorists are political rather than religious, yet it sounds to me like Islam is a political movement aswell as religious, if it governs how to treat other civilizations and other people en mass rather than on a personal level.
A lot of the quran speaks of your people, their people, them and us, alliances, territory. Those issues are political.

The Quran does talk about political matters but it teaches words of peace and fighting only in self defense and only allowing you to kill those who kill or those who are destroying lives...therefore the problem is not what it teaches politically.

Also this us vs them is unfair of Quran. Quran had issues with a people who oppressed the believers but it didn't say to divide from rest of humanity and in fact talked about brotherhood of humanity in other verses and the unity of humanity in other verses and talked about generally being a friend to people.

It only forbid love to those who oppressed them, drove them out their homes and were ought to kill them.

It's unfair to say that Quran created this us vs them mentality.

That's fair enough, since this us vs them mentality is an evolved behavior.

But (assuming everything you say is true about Islam being peaceful) do you think Islam would be as widespead as it is if it did obey by its own laws of peace.

I personally think if you look at the expansion of Islam in history, there's no way it could have been successful if it had been as peaceful as these rules say Muslims have to be.

Just from a military standpoint you can't only attack people who attack you, there has to be some offensive maneuvers against groups of people who haven't yet harmed you, otherwise a war would involve standing still and waiting for individual people to attack, then attacking those individuals once you have been attacked. There has to be some point where an army has to basically work along the lines of "Ok this person attacked us, these people are all basically with that person, we need to kill them all."

I think the same way about Christianity, there's no way Christianity became as wide spread as it did by just handing out bibles.

I do wish someone had the foresight to tell the people who slaughtered those poor workers at the magazine that the Quran actually teaches words of peace, instead of telling people on atheist forums afterwards, in an attempt to exonerate their religion from all blame.

The Quran is an utter piece of shit, just like the bible. It's irrelevant, contradictory, self serving and paints a picture almost constantly that anyone who doesn't believe is going to hell.

But the book doesn't kill people, people kill people, using the Quran as an easy multiple-choice way of justifying almost anything they so happen to want to do anyway.

(January 8, 2015 at 1:34 am)MysticKnight Wrote: I think we all know the acts of terrorists are usually fueled by political motives more then religious motives.

That may be the case, but the problem is, they justify their barbarity with their faith -- not their politics.

If their motives are political, they need to stop cloaking themselves in Islam. And if their motives are religious, moderates like you should be posting these views on their forums, to convince them of the illegitimacy of their actions.

(January 8, 2015 at 1:34 am)MysticKnight Wrote:

(January 8, 2015 at 1:31 am)Minimalist Wrote: I must say that I don't really give a flying fuck what they believe. It's what they DO that is a concern.

And there....all the koranic verses you can spiel are drowned out by the gunfire.

Except majority of Muslims interpret these verses as teaching peace and don't see a contradiction and majority of Muslims are peaceful.

I think we all know the acts of terrorists are usually fueled by political motives more then religious motives.

So what?

(January 7, 2015 at 6:10 pm)user Wrote: The quraan contradicts itself, whatever you are looking for you can find in that book. If you want to kill there would be a verse to justify it, and if you want to pretend to be an angel there is another verse for that. And the reason is because Mo wrote it and changed it according to what he needed at that given time. When he needed to ally with the non muslims and make peace with certain rivals, he spoke of peace and forgiveness, when he had an army and could invade, suddenly the word of God has to spread and unbelievers have to die, etc...

It's so subjective that he did not respect his own laws, every man gets to marry 4 times, but the rules don't apply to him, he can marry as much as he likes. Widows can marry another man but not his widows, they should remain single after he is dead. etc etc... He was full of shit head to toe.

That is all true, and illustrates that the fundamentalists aren't following the Qu'ran any better than the moderates: it can't be followed perfectly, it has to be cherry-picked, and the question is whether it will be cherry-picked for barbarity or modernity. Just like the OT.

(January 8, 2015 at 12:35 am)MysticKnight Wrote: The verses that are seen to contradict can be seen in context of a defensive war and in context of the verses that say for example that permission was given to fight because they were oppressed and being fought, and to fight only those who fight them..and so on and so forth.

I don't know why anyone would suggest Mohammad contradicted himself there when it can easily be interpreted in a way that doesn't contradict.

The Jewish OT, the Christian Bible and the Koran, are all ancient books of myth reflecting the people that wrote them and a reflection of their own desires to have power and control.

There is nothing moral about them other than a superficial excuse to protect the tribe. They do not reflect any modern reality of pluralism in the secular west.

And any one of these alleged gods are pricks, if one wants to pretend these god/s are real for writing convoluted manuals everyone fights over.

I would not hire these alleged god/s to run a bicycle factory. The bikes would end up with squid for spokes and the workers would murder each other as to how the manual tells them to assemble the bikes.

"You are taking it out of context" is a cop out excuse. It allows both liberal and fundy to cherry pick and ignore it is the same manual.

(January 7, 2015 at 4:45 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: وَإِنْ جَنَحُوا لِلسَّلْمِ فَاجْنَحْ لَهَا وَتَوَكَّلْ عَلَى اللَّهِ ۚ إِنَّهُ هُوَ السَّمِيعُ الْعَلِيمُ {61}[Shakir 8:61] And if they incline to peace, then incline to it and trust in Allah; surely He is the Hearing, the Knowing.

لَا يَنْهَاكُمُ اللَّهُ عَنِ الَّذِينَ لَمْ يُقَاتِلُوكُمْ فِي الدِّينِ وَلَمْ يُخْرِجُوكُمْ مِنْ دِيَارِكُمْ أَنْ تَبَرُّوهُمْ وَتُقْسِطُوا إِلَيْهِمْ ۚ إِنَّ اللَّهَ يُحِبُّ الْمُقْسِطِينَ {8}[Shakir 60:8] Allah does not forbid you respecting those who have not made war against you on account of (your) religion, and have not driven you forth from your homes, that you show them kindness and deal with them justly; surely Allah loves the doers of justice.إِنَّمَا يَنْهَاكُمُ اللَّهُ عَنِ الَّذِينَ قَاتَلُوكُمْ فِي الدِّينِ وَأَخْرَجُوكُمْ مِنْ دِيَارِكُمْ وَظَاهَرُوا عَلَىٰ إِخْرَاجِكُمْ أَنْ تَوَلَّوْهُمْ ۚ وَمَنْ يَتَوَلَّهُمْ فَأُولَٰئِكَ هُمُ الظَّالِمُونَ {9}[Shakir 60:9] Allah only forbids you respecting those who made war upon you on account of (your) religion, and drove you forth from your homes and backed up (others) in your expulsion, that you make friends with them, and whoever makes friends with them, these are the unjust.

مِنْ أَجْلِ ذَٰلِكَ كَتَبْنَا عَلَىٰ بَنِي إِسْرَائِيلَ أَنَّهُ مَنْ قَتَلَ نَفْسًا بِغَيْرِ نَفْسٍ أَوْ فَسَادٍ فِي الْأَرْضِ فَكَأَنَّمَا قَتَلَ النَّاسَ جَمِيعًا وَمَنْ أَحْيَاهَا فَكَأَنَّمَا أَحْيَا النَّاسَ جَمِيعًا ۚ وَلَقَدْ جَاءَتْهُمْ رُسُلُنَا بِالْبَيِّنَاتِ ثُمَّ إِنَّ كَثِيرًا مِنْهُمْ بَعْدَ ذَٰلِكَ فِي الْأَرْضِ لَمُسْرِفُونَ {32}[Shakir 5:32] For this reason did We prescribe to the children of Israel that whoever slays a soul, unless it be for manslaughter or for mischief in the land, it is as though he slew all men; and whoever keeps it alive, it is as though he kept alive all men; and certainly Our messengers came to them with clear arguments, but even after that many of them certainly act extravagantly in the land.


إِلَّا الَّذِينَ يَصِلُونَ إِلَىٰ قَوْمٍ بَيْنَكُمْ وَبَيْنَهُمْ مِيثَاقٌ أَوْ جَاءُوكُمْ حَصِرَتْ صُدُورُهُمْ أَنْ يُقَاتِلُوكُمْ أَوْ يُقَاتِلُوا قَوْمَهُمْ ۚ وَلَوْ شَاءَ اللَّهُ لَسَلَّطَهُمْ عَلَيْكُمْ فَلَقَاتَلُوكُمْ ۚ فَإِنِ اعْتَزَلُوكُمْ فَلَمْ يُقَاتِلُوكُمْ وَأَلْقَوْا إِلَيْكُمُ السَّلَمَ فَمَا جَعَلَ اللَّهُ لَكُمْ عَلَيْهِمْ سَبِيلًا {90}[Shakir 4:90] Except those who reach a people between whom and you there is an alliance, or who come to you, their hearts shrinking from fighting you or fighting their own people; and if Allah had pleased, He would have given them power over you, so that they should have certainly fought you; therefore if they withdraw from you and do not fight you and offer you peace, then Allah has not given you a way against them.

يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا إِذَا ضَرَبْتُمْ فِي سَبِيلِ اللَّهِ فَتَبَيَّنُوا وَلَا تَقُولُوا لِمَنْ أَلْقَىٰ إِلَيْكُمُ السَّلَامَ لَسْتَ مُؤْمِنًا تَبْتَغُونَ عَرَضَ الْحَيَاةِ الدُّنْيَا فَعِنْدَ اللَّهِ مَغَانِمُ كَثِيرَةٌ ۚ كَذَٰلِكَ كُنْتُمْ مِنْ قَبْلُ فَمَنَّ اللَّهُ عَلَيْكُمْ فَتَبَيَّنُوا ۚ إِنَّ اللَّهَ كَانَ بِمَا تَعْمَلُونَ خَبِيرًا {94}[Shakir 4:94] O you who believe! when you go to war in Allah's way, make investigation, and do not say to any one who offers you peace: You are not a believer. Do you seek goods of this world's life! But with Allah there are abundant gains; you too were such before, then Allah conferred a benefit on you; therefore make investigation; surely Allah is aware of what you do.



وَعِبَادُ الرَّحْمَٰنِ الَّذِينَ يَمْشُونَ عَلَى الْأَرْضِ هَوْنًا وَإِذَا خَاطَبَهُمُ الْجَاهِلُونَ قَالُوا سَلَامًا {63}[Shakir 25:63] And the servants of the Beneficent Allah are they who walk on the earth in humbleness, and when the ignorant address them, they say: Peace.

Quoting Koran in arabic to an audience who mostly have little reason to know arabic is a nice touch. It highlights the mumbo jumbo qualities of the Koran over the actual meaning.

The Koran teaches nothing. Modern people who think Koran teaches something, like those primitives of the past which Koran was written to impress and con, thinks Koran teaches whatever these same people would like to see advocated, or would like to force upon those who disagrees with them.