(January 10, 2015 at 9:05 am)abaris Wrote:

(January 10, 2015 at 8:52 am)fr0d0 Wrote: In the Bible God is promoting fairness towards slaves. Slavery as practiced was the cultural norm. The ruling classes abuse everyone as much as they can get away with.

Let's go there for a second and assume that god and not men promoted something. His take on slavery is bad enough. You were allowed to beat your slaves within an inch of their lives and only if they died immediately some form of punishment were to take place. If the slave survived for another couple of days and died afterwards, it's no big deal.

There are also several verses about slaves having to obey their masters no matter how cruel they turned out to be.

Yes, we're all aware that slavery was part of the game in these days, but we're talking about divine commands by a supposedly supreme being, which should be above human morality. The fact that this being simply acts in a very human way, according to the time in question points to human creating these guidelines without a divine will guiding their hands.

Gods people weren't doing what God wanted. They consulted him on what they should do, and his advice as they saw it was to treat those in your care better. If God wanted to write slavery out if reality, like many other evils, he could have. But without choice to do good or evil there is no choice. Just robots. Not sentient beings.

Yes, your observation is very accurate. He starts off pretty much as just a guy walking around on earth with magic powers, and very human emotions and failings, then transforms into more and more of an abstract God. Even though the bible says he is unchanging. It's one of the least consistent and coherent books ever. Don't strain yourself trying to make sense of it. It is indeed just a reflection of ancient culture, and their worship of a "God" to plug the gaps in their knowledge. You are very perceptive, it's good to have a more open minded theist here You wouldn't believe some of the conversations I've had on here. If you can even call them that.

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Ooh no, not free will. No I won't have it!

You can have free will without evil. It's dead easy. Make people who can't conceive of, or perform, anything harmful to anyone else. You still have choices but they are all good choices. Why put in bad choices? Give me the controller God, you're fucking it all up again.

(January 10, 2015 at 12:50 pm)robvalue Wrote: Yes, your observation is very accurate. He starts off pretty much as just a guy walking around on earth with magic powers, and very human emotions and failings, then transforms into more and more of an abstract God. Even though the bible says he is unchanging. It's one of the least consistent and coherent books ever. Don't strain yourself trying to make sense of it. It is indeed just a reflection of ancient culture, and their worship of a "God" to plug the gaps in their knowledge. You are very perceptive, it's good to have a more open minded theist here You wouldn't believe some of the conversations I've had on here. If you can even call them that.

Well that's too kind. But I never said god changes. I'm saying over the ages people's perspectives changed.

Hehe well, yes. According to the bible he changes, and doesn't change. That indeed has no bearing on reality, whether a God exists or not.

(January 10, 2015 at 1:06 pm)robvalue Wrote: Hehe well, yes. According to the bible he changes, and doesn't change. That indeed has no bearing on reality, whether a God exists or not.

well god could end his own existence at any point.

(January 10, 2015 at 7:33 am)Grasshopper Wrote: Well I didn't watch the video but about what you wrote. I have to disagree. There are many verses about divorce too. God said he hated it but still gave guidelines on the subject because he knew that not everyone would be able to make it work. Likewise, if you told ancient desert dwellers to not have slaves (note- different from roman slaves) while the rest of the world did, chances were they weren't going to comply. So guidelines were given. if you hit your slave hard enough to permanently damage him, he was set free from the owners monstrosity. Hebrew slaves were released after 6 years. Just because regulations were given doesn't mean God actually approved of it.

Y'know, something smells fishy in this story. Here we have a deity who had absolutely no compunction about handing down commandments carved in stone ordering his followers to desist certain activities, and when they did not obey, he allegedly flooded the entire world with rain, killing all but seven humans, in order to enforce his wishes. But even though you want to believe he hated slavery, or at least frowned upon it, he somehow never got around to taking any of these steps to eradicate that crime against humanity because the Israelites would disobey and he would be powerless to stop them?

I might have fallen off the cabbage truck, but I didn't fall off yesterday. Explain why your god was vociferous in enforcing his Commandments, but could not see fit to perhaps add one more, and enforce it with his usual thoroughness -- you know, extermination, threats of Hell, etc.

(January 10, 2015 at 7:33 am)Grasshopper Wrote: And if a slave works for 6 years under a christian master who is kind to him- call me evil but I don't find anything wrong with that.

Also, this fiction of yours that Biblical slavery only lasted six years is nonsense. That only applied to Jewish indentured servants, not foreign slaves:

Quote:9 “‘If any of your fellow Israelites become poor and sell themselves to you, do not make them work as slaves. 40 They are to be treated as hired workers or temporary residents among you; they are to work for you until the Year of Jubilee. 41 Then they and their children are to be released, and they will go back to their own clans and to the property of their ancestors. 42 Because the Israelites are my servants, whom I brought out of Egypt, they must not be sold as slaves. 43 Do not rule over them ruthlessly, but fear your God.

44 “‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. 45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. 46 You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se...ticus%2025

This passage makes a clear distinction between what we would call indentured servitude, and slavery. Your god explicitly says that it is okay to own people for life, as well as any children they might bear while under your ownership, and that they are property that is heritable.

You can try to gild that lily all you wish, but the fact of the matter is that slavery, by your holy book, is permissible; and you, rather than using your own moral sensibilities and denouncing that for the evil that it is, you are content with it.

Sickening. Yet more evidence that blind faith corrodes the moral essence of men.

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(January 10, 2015 at 10:37 am)Grasshopper Wrote: God doesn't want murder, divorce, prostitution, evil thoughts too. No sin. But obviously we ain't getting that. Free will remember?

Setting aside for the moment the fallacy of free will, all your god would need to do is say, "If you own another human being, you are sinning, and I will send you to Hell." It might not eliminate the problem (just as "thou shall not kill" didn't eliminate murder) -- but it would make a clear moral statement and put the weight of his alleged power behind it.

The fact that he saw fit to make worshiping idols a damnable sin, but remained silent on the topic of owning another human being, reveals a curious sense of priorities in your god. He's more worried about his competition than he is in, you know, doing the right thing.

Here, here's a simple question: if you had the power to stop slavery -- one wave of your hand and it's gone -- would you?

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(January 10, 2015 at 12:49 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: Gods people weren't doing what God wanted. They consulted him on what they should do, and his advice as they saw it was to treat those in your care better. If God wanted to write slavery out if reality, like many other evils, he could have. But without choice to do good or evil there is no choice. Just robots. Not sentient beings.

Hell makes any argument from free will vapid; there can be no free will when exercising it contrary to your god's wishes result in damnation.

Arguing otherwise is the equivalent of declaring the armed robber innocent because after all, his victim did not have to surrender his money, he only chose to do so -- never mind the gun pointed at his head.

No will is truly free when one's soul is held hostage.

(January 10, 2015 at 1:16 pm)Parkers Tan Wrote:

(January 10, 2015 at 7:33 am)Grasshopper Wrote: Well I didn't watch the video but about what you wrote. I have to disagree. There are many verses about divorce too. God said he hated it but still gave guidelines on the subject because he knew that not everyone would be able to make it work. Likewise, if you told ancient desert dwellers to not have slaves (note- different from roman slaves) while the rest of the world did, chances were they weren't going to comply. So guidelines were given. if you hit your slave hard enough to permanently damage him, he was set free from the owners monstrosity. Hebrew slaves were released after 6 years. Just because regulations were given doesn't mean God actually approved of it.

Y'know, something smells fishy in this story. Here we have a deity who had absolutely no compunction about handing down commandments carved in stone ordering his followers to desist certain activities, and when they did not obey, he allegedly flooded the entire world with rain, killing all but seven humans, in order to enforce his wishes. But even though you want to believe he hated slavery, or at least frowned upon it, he somehow never got around to taking any of these steps to eradicate that crime against humanity because the Israelites would disobey and he would be powerless to stop them?

I might have fallen off the cabbage truck, but I didn't fall off yesterday. Explain why your god was vociferous in enforcing his Commandments, but could not see fit to perhaps add one more, and enforce it with his usual thoroughness -- you know, extermination, threats of Hell, etc.

(January 10, 2015 at 7:33 am)Grasshopper Wrote: And if a slave works for 6 years under a christian master who is kind to him- call me evil but I don't find anything wrong with that.

Also, this fiction of yours that Biblical slavery only lasted six years is nonsense. That only applied to Jewish indentured servants, not foreign slaves:

Quote:9 “‘If any of your fellow Israelites become poor and sell themselves to you, do not make them work as slaves. 40 They are to be treated as hired workers or temporary residents among you; they are to work for you until the Year of Jubilee. 41 Then they and their children are to be released, and they will go back to their own clans and to the property of their ancestors. 42 Because the Israelites are my servants, whom I brought out of Egypt, they must not be sold as slaves. 43 Do not rule over them ruthlessly, but fear your God.

44 “‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. 45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. 46 You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se...ticus%2025

This passage makes a clear distinction between what we would call indentured servitude, and slavery. Your god explicitly says that it is okay to own people for life, as well as any children they might bear while under your ownership, and that they are property that is heritable.

You can try to gild that lily all you wish, but the fact of the matter is that slavery, by your holy book, is permissible; and you, rather than using your own moral sensibilities and denouncing that for the evil that it is, you are content with it.

Sickening. Yet more evidence that blind faith corrodes the moral essence of men.

---

(January 10, 2015 at 10:37 am)Grasshopper Wrote: God doesn't want murder, divorce, prostitution, evil thoughts too. No sin. But obviously we ain't getting that. Free will remember?

Setting aside for the moment the fallacy of free will, all your god would need to do is say, "If you own another human being, you are sinning, and I will send you to Hell." It might not eliminate the problem (just as "thou shall not kill" didn't eliminate murder) -- but it would make a clear moral statement and put the weight of his alleged power behind it.

The fact that he saw fit to make worshiping idols a damnable sin, but remained silent on the topic of owning another human being, reveals a curious sense of priorities in your god. He's more worried about his competition than he is in, you know, doing the right thing.

Here, here's a simple question: if you had the power to stop slavery -- one wave of your hand and it's gone -- would you?

---

(January 10, 2015 at 12:49 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: Gods people weren't doing what God wanted. They consulted him on what they should do, and his advice as they saw it was to treat those in your care better. If God wanted to write slavery out if reality, like many other evils, he could have. But without choice to do good or evil there is no choice. Just robots. Not sentient beings.

Hell makes any argument from free will vapid; there can be no free will when exercising it contrary to your god's wishes result in damnation.

Arguing otherwise is the equivalent of declaring the armed robber innocent because after all, his victim did not have to surrender his money, he only chose to do so -- never mind the gun pointed at his head.

No will is truly free when one's soul is held hostage.

Uh-huh . . . And what makes you think that it was considered cruelty back then. Looking at ancient civilizations like Egyptians or babylonian. If everyone had slaves there wouldn't be anything unnatural at that time.
It is my opinion that it is because the Atlantic and roman slave systems were so bad the church banned it in the 7th century and the rest of the world banned it in the 19th.
if in a few generations the world turned vegan seeing all the animal cruelty around them. Those vegans will be like - OMG! jesus didn't condemn eating meat even though it is a barbaric act against animals. He's so evil. And we'll be like - big deal.
Likewise we now are saying slavery is bad. But I'm guessing if we said that to an ancient Israelite he also will be like - big deal.
And no- I'm not condoning slavery or the fact that god refrained from saying anything against it. I was just putting into perspective what must've occurred to the writers of the laws (CLEARLY written by men) it wasn't that big a deal back then as it is now. There were bigger things to them.

Now excuse me- I'll be back only after 8-9 hours

(January 10, 2015 at 1:50 pm)Grasshopper Wrote: And no- I'm not condoning slavery or the fact that god refrained from saying anything against it.

Your god didn't just "refrain from saying anything against it" -- he laid down rules for the practice of chattel slavery, giving it the imprimatur of Godly approval. What does that say about his perfection?

(January 10, 2015 at 1:50 pm)Grasshopper Wrote: I was just putting into perspective what must've occurred to the writers of the laws (CLEARLY written by men) it wasn't that big a deal back then as it is now.

And that undercuts any moral authority the book might have.

(January 10, 2015 at 1:16 pm)Parkers Tan Wrote: Hell makes any argument from free will vapid; there can be no free will when exercising it contrary to your god's wishes result in damnation.

Arguing otherwise is the equivalent of declaring the armed robber innocent because after all, his victim did not have to surrender his money, he only chose to do so -- never mind the gun pointed at his head.

No will is truly free when one's soul is held hostage.

Only if you insist that hell isn't a correctional facility, Gods method of posthumously enforcing justice. I do so I don't have your problem.

(January 10, 2015 at 12:49 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: Gods people weren't doing what God wanted. They consulted him on what they should do, and his advice as they saw it was to treat those in your care better. If God wanted to write slavery out if reality, like many other evils, he could have. But without choice to do good or evil there is no choice. Just robots. Not sentient beings.

Textbook answer.