.

Quote:Furthermore, during the Greco-Roman period of Jewish history, Jews actually engaged in actively promoting conversion to Judaism. In a well-known story in the Talmud, a Roman asked Rabbi Hillel to “teach him all the Torah while he stands on one foot.” Hillel responded, “What you do not like done to you, do not do to your fellow; this is all the Torah. Now go and study it.” This Roman embraced that principle and converted to Judaism.
This story is by no means an “exception.” In fact, thousands of non-Jews living in the Roman world, and everywhere in Asia and Africa, embraced Judaism. While Judaism does not seek out people to convert, it is, and always has been, open to welcoming anyone who sincerely embraces Jewish life.

http://bethshalomnc.org/conversion/
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Articl...NPJW53F_iU

Quote:Judaism was the most active proselytizing religion from the Maccabean period (though the Hasmoneans sinned by forcibly converting the Idumeans) through to the time when Rome finally embraced Christianity. Then the Church fathers, using the temporal power of Rome, banned Jewish missionary work upon pain of death. Thus the current tradition of discouraging such proselytizing emerged and has lasted for over a thousand years.

Before the rise of modern Christianity, some Jews tried to win converts. In order to gain converts they would have had to interact with Romans and would have gained some knowledge of their beliefs. It isn't hard to believe that the stories from both culture would have influenced each other.

As an aside to everything else that has been stated Steve, I have just two simple questions: Are you, or are you not aware, that some of the early church fathers even stated that earlier myths resembled "the foundation for the philosophy of Christ"? Clement of Alexandria even wrote that "the philosophy of the Greeks... contains the basic elements of that genuine and perfect knowledge which is higher than human... even upon those spiritual objects." That's evidence you've considered, I would imagine. So...

What do you make of it?

Let's not forget Justin Martyr:

Quote:CHAPTER XXI -- ANALOGIES TO THE HISTORY OF CHRIST.

And when we say also that the Word, who is the first-birth of God, was produced without sexual union, and that He, Jesus Christ, our Teacher, was crucified and died, and rose again, and ascended into heaven, we propound nothing different from what you believe regarding those whom you esteem sons of Jupiter.

First Apology c 160

(February 5, 2015 at 11:54 am)SteveII Wrote: It is funny you skipped verse 18: Galatians 1:18 Then after three years, I went up to Jerusalem to get acquainted with Cephas and stayed with him fifteen days.

Cephas is Peter.

Galatians 1 is a chronological series of events Paul is relaying. In Gal 2:9 he talks about meeting Peter and John at another time.

I intentionally omitted 18, which is obvious; for reasons we'll get to in a moment. You pointed it out to bolster your view that Paul developed his gospel from interviews with those that walked with Jesus. Game, set and match.

I quoted Paul saying that his gospel did not come from humans, but from revelation; Paul's words in Galatians 1:12. If you claim that the Cephas in Galatians 1:18 is the apostle Peter insinuating that this is where Paul received his gospel; well then, you have caught Paul lying! How can this be when your argument hinges on the assumption that there is no reason for Paul to lie?

Later Paul tells us that he is having a conflict with Cephas in Antioch. I remember what Paul's solution was, do you? That's right, Paul hauled ass to Jerusalem to discuss the situation with Peter. Pray tell us, why would Paul travel all the way to Jerusalem to discuss with Peter the problems he was having in Antioch with Cephas if Peter and Cephas were the same person? Boggles the mind.

(February 5, 2015 at 3:02 pm)SteveII Wrote: If your conclusion is that Christianity is recycled myths and then your argument for that is "we don't know how Christianity started", a discussion becomes impossible and even the recycled myth hypothesis can't be reasoned.

Sure, the recycled myth thing is somewhat speculative, but not as speculative as the the 'it's all true' thing, which requires us to believe six impossible things before breakfast. It isn't our fault that you're uncomfortable with doubt and probability and shades of gray.

(February 5, 2015 at 3:02 pm)SteveII Wrote: I can't argue the negative because most of you will allow me no facts to formulate any type of premise that won't be struck down with "prove it".

Us pointing out that your 'facts' aren't actually factual must be tough for you, but it's not unfair. One of the main things that makes a fact a fact is that it can be demonstrated to be true with evidence a reasonably skeptical person would find compelling.

I used to be a Christian. Then I read the Bible cover-to-cover twice. That left me an 'agnostic theist'. I still believed in God, but I couldn't believe a perfect being was responsible for that mess of a book.

It was apologetics that made me an atheist years later: the gradual realization that there are no good apologetics, every apologetic argument is fatally flawed. Educated, sincere, intelligent people trying to prove God convinced me that belief in God is not rationally justified. I felt sorry for the people twisting their minds into pretzels trying to reconcile God, the Bible, and reason.

I have sympathy for you. You're a true believer, but your task is to square the circle, and you can't support the supernatural elements of your religion any better than Hindus or Muslims or Taoists can the supernatural elements of theirs.

You know, I put myself in the shoes of a christian and wondered how I would argue that the bible is true, God exists and God is Yahweh.

I couldn't even get started. It must be incredibly frustrating.

(February 6, 2015 at 12:41 pm)robvalue Wrote: You know, I put myself in the shoes of a christian and wondered how I would argue that the bible is true, God exists and God is Yahweh.

I couldn't even get started. It must be incredibly frustrating.

At least not while keeping a straight face.

(February 6, 2015 at 12:59 pm)JesusHChrist Wrote:

(February 6, 2015 at 12:41 pm)robvalue Wrote: You know, I put myself in the shoes of a christian and wondered how I would argue that the bible is true, God exists and God is Yahweh.

I couldn't even get started. It must be incredibly frustrating.

At least not while keeping a straight face.

It's especially hilarious when you start reading the Egyptian, Sumerian, Akkadian, Hittite, etc. myths that predate the Bible by hundreds, if not thousands, of years, and hold in your hands literal and obvious evidence that Yahweh and the stories "he wrote" are simply additions to the evolving stock of fiction in man's history of tribal cults.

So far I've discovered:
- Egyptian and Sumerian creation myths in which the god(s) speaks things into existence, rests when finished, creates a paradise where beings never die, animals don't bite (the wolves don't hurt the lambs), fruit is eaten from plants, gods get angry, and place a curse upon the offender;
- Fights a sea serpent/dragon;
- The story of Joseph and Potiphar's wife paralleled in the earlier Story of Two Brothers;
- The god sends a flood to destroy mankind because of their sin, but the one righteous man is saved by a boat upon which he takes some animals;
- Cain and Able motifs (farmer god or king, vs shepherd god or king);

I'm also only on about page 50 of a 700 page book in which every document was selected for its relation to the Old Testament.

Has someone sued Yahweh yet because I'm starting to think he would wisely settle out of court.

(February 6, 2015 at 2:19 pm)Pickup_shonuff Wrote: I'm also only on about page 50 of a 700 page book in which every document was selected for its relation to the Old Testament.

What's the name of the book?

(February 6, 2015 at 12:41 pm)robvalue Wrote: You know, I put myself in the shoes of a christian and wondered how I would argue that the bible is true, God exists and God is Yahweh.

I couldn't even get started. It must be incredibly frustrating.

Or if you're a Mormon, and God is Adam too, and also the Archangel Michael, and also Jesus father in the form of Adam (conception occurring via actual penis/vagina sex, no doves or spooks, no siree, the real dirty deed).

So Mary, mother of Jesus is another one of Adam's wives.