I think Deism is the position that the universe was made by some kind of intelligence, but that the specific mythologies of all religions are clearly bullshit.

I agree, that is what it seems to be. The thing still baffling me is promoting this "some kind of intelligence" to a "God". But I suppose God is all but a meaningless term, as it can be literally anything, so this is no different.

(December 4, 2014 at 10:09 am)robvalue Wrote: I don't wish to attack deism, as I see deists as more on my side than theists, in general.

But I just don't get what the point of it is.

It always seems to start with the same sort of appeals used by theists about "how else could this happen" or it "looks designed". Or that there just must be a higher power. I'm not aware of any good logical argument that leads to any sort of creator.

And this is where I really have the problem; if there is some sort of intelligent creator who made our universe (I don't have a problem accepting it's possible) why call it a God? All you know about it is it can make at least one universe, as we perceive it. So it's another being, somewhere else, presumably. It sounds more like the simulation hypothesis.

I've heard it said that God is the placeholder for whatever made the universe, even so far as to say God could be nothing, if nothing made it. That's just defining God to be the answer to a question, and seems entirely pointless to me.

So does anyone have any insight on why a deist chooses to believe in a God, for better reasons than those I've stated, and why you label a creator a God? Is it just meant to be a synonym? It seems weird given the word God is so well known to mean something all powerful, rather than something more powerful than us.

I've posted several arguments which highlight problems with deism before and not been given an answer. Assuming intelligent design is necessary for all existence produces an infinite regress. If intelligent design isn't always necessary, then how can you know our universe needs it?

I guess I'm wondering why you would choose to identify as a deist rather than an atheist. I would think it must be fairly important to you to add such a bold belief. Is it a desire to hold on to something a bit mystical and magical without committing to anything particular?

Thanks for any replies! I'm not having a go, I just find it confusing.

Hi robvalue

In general I find that the more people forgive and let go of attachment to these differences, we can flow more freely between one system and the next, sort of like learning multiple languages.

Multiple languages are not necessarily "necessary."

They are convenient for addressing that audience which prefers that language. Different languages can see and say things in a certain perspective that another language can miss.

For each bias a different person has, that person will share things that another person can't see.

For example, my bf is like one of these deist types, and doesn't go all the way with a personalized God like Christians do he recognizes as different but compatible. when he talks to other atheists or agnostics he can communicate in simple secular terms more objectively than Christians do who get upset and keep trying to use their Bible.

So maybe that's just his job, to be there as an in-between goto person.

Because he doesn't get into all the Christian relationship stuff, he avoids that and focuses on general secular discussion and information/media just like other secular gentiles, but he aligns with the Christians and conservatives without getting all into their language and culture around it.
He sticks to relating to the same values, minus the religious dressings.

OK, thank you

What I don't understand abut deism is the thought that God would be so great that he wouldn't be concerned with his creation. It doesn't make much sense that a great God would create a universe and then just let it go on it's own, not caring. I would think that it would be the other way around and that he would be involved in it's affairs.

What about deism says that God is "great" or has any moral character of any type at all?

(February 11, 2015 at 2:34 pm)Lek Wrote: What I don't understand abut deism is the thought that God would be so great that he wouldn't be concerned with his creation. It doesn't make much sense that a great God would create a universe and then just let it go on it's own, not caring. I would think that it would be the other way around and that he would be involved in it's affairs.

I beg to differ. Deism makes a lot more sense than traditional theism. A God that allows suffering and catastrophes and disorder to occur in this world is best explained by deism that proposes God being too grand to be involved in our affairs. A loving God would make no sense with all this unnecessary suffering in the world.

(December 4, 2014 at 8:05 pm)bennyboy Wrote: In other words, a Deity is a massive creative mind, so massive that it couldn't possibly care about humans specifically, or about anything we do;

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(February 11, 2015 at 2:37 pm)FatAndFaithless Wrote: What about deism says that God is "great" or has any moral character of any type at all?

This was one of the quotes I was referring to. I'll change "God" to "Diety".

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(February 11, 2015 at 2:40 pm)Irrational Wrote: I beg to differ. Deism makes a lot more sense than traditional theism. A God that allows suffering and catastrophes and disorder to occur in this world is best explained by deism that proposes God being too grand to be involved in our affairs. A loving God would make no sense with all this unnecessary suffering in the world.

Unless God is more than one-dimensional.

In my 20s-30s, I used to call myself a deist. One day I realized a creator was an unnecessary complication without any justification or support. Poof! Now I'm a devil-infested atheist. Living the dream!

One personal side effect with my very Christian wife (now ex) - when I self-identified as a deist, she didn't like it much, but deism was tolerable as I still believed in "something". Later, in marriage counseling, as things were falling apart, when I pulled no punches and said I was an atheist, it was though all hope for her was lost.

I might as well have said I was a serial killer. Note, I was tolerant of her Christianity - for years, hardly said a word against it - but she COULD NOT abide living with an out and out atheist.

All of which is truly odd if any Christian were to read the writing of famous deists such as Thomas Paine or Jefferson. Both had quite a distaste for much of Christianity, Paine particularly. Why Christians see deists as almost one of their own is beyond me. I certainly never was.

Deism is more rational than traditional theism because it answers the evil question - God doesn't control humans and just set in motion the events that lead to our existence, so god is not guilty.

I still see it as an irrational position because it starts on the premise of incredulity - The universe is too good to be true, our lives are too good to be true, the complexity of humans and the human brain are amazing - Therefore a god created or helped creating all of this.

Most deists are freethinkers and probably don't think very differently from atheists so I don't really have a problem with them - I do dislike it when they claim their position is intellectually superior, because it's like they are trying to eat both halves of the cake ("Fundamentalist atheists are just as bad as fundamentalist theists").