(February 13, 2015 at 5:04 pm)Lek Wrote: Christians also adopted the word hades to describe the place of the waiting.

They adopted more than that. The whole concept of the afterlife, faith-based salvation and the intercessor with the divine came from pagan concepts merged with Judaism. All three were foreign to Judaism and the very last one, downright blasphemous. It's really no wonder the Jews largely rejected Christianity. The whole Trinity notion is a crude attempt to have it both ways, the pagan divine intercessor with strict Jewish monotheism.

Quote:The old testament Jews didn't have a clear concept of life after death, but sheol was no less the state of waiting that christians ascribe to hades.

Sheol literally meant "the grave". Early books in the OT make it clear that you die and are no more. Later books, admittedly before Christianity, started to flirt with fuzzy notions of the underworld, alluded to when King Saul has a medium contact Samuel from beyond the grave. Most likely, the Greeks and Egyptians had their influence before Christianity morphed into a new religion.

(February 13, 2015 at 5:08 pm)Lek Wrote:

(February 13, 2015 at 3:45 pm)Parkers Tan Wrote: No, your god is evil, and the fact that you claim he loves us is evidence that you either have no real conception of what love is -- or evidence that you've got a bad case of Stockholm Syndrome.

Like I always say, you refuse to consider that man has any guilt in the matter. You also refuse to look at the whole picture of our existence; both here in the afterlife. You only consider in the realm of your little boxed-in world.

Why don't you explain why cancer is good?

You're absolutely right, I hold that some evils aren't man's own doing. I'm asking you to explain, in detail, why man is guilty of making earthquakes and fatal diseases and droughts and whatnot.

Why do you absolve your god of his guilt in those evils? How can an omnipotent being be compelled to do anything?

(February 13, 2015 at 3:35 pm)Lek Wrote:

(February 13, 2015 at 3:03 pm)Nestor Wrote: Thank you for proclaiming the fact that NOBODY has ANY clue whether their version of Christianity is "the right one," hence rendering your little Gospel message so irrelevant that even the Pope must now speak about atheists possibly going to heaven.

Damn God, talk about an epic fail.

We all know that Jesus is our savior, but you're right that we don't know for sure if our interpretation of biblical doctrine is correct or not. We believe that we humans evolved, but scientists don't all agree with each other about the specifics.

Savior from what exactly? The boogieman? Insecurity? Guilt? Fire and brimstone? Annihilation? Global terrorism? Separation anxiety? Kind of sad that you guys can't seem to agree on the most basic points of doctrine that the Creator himself apparently took such efforts to codify.

(February 13, 2015 at 5:27 pm)DeistPaladin Wrote: Sheol literally meant "the grave". Early books in the OT make it clear that you die and are no more. Later books, admittedly before Christianity, started to flirt with fuzzy notions of the underworld, alluded to when King Saul has a medium contact Samuel from beyond the grave. Most likely, the Greeks and Egyptians had their influence before Christianity morphed into a new religion.

The following are quotes from the old testament alluding to life after death.

Psalm 49:13-15New International Version (NIV)

13 This is the fate of those who trust in themselves,
and of their followers, who approve their sayings.
14 They are like sheep and are destined to die;
death will be their shepherd
(but the upright will prevail over them in the morning).
Their forms will decay in the grave,
far from their princely mansions.
15 But God will redeem me from the realm of the dead;
he will surely take me to himself.

1 Samuel 28:13-20New International Version (NIV)

13 The king said to her, “Don’t be afraid. What do you see?”

The woman said, “I see a ghostly figure coming up out of the earth.”

14 “What does he look like?” he asked.

“An old man wearing a robe is coming up,” she said.

Then Saul knew it was Samuel, and he bowed down and prostrated himself with his face to the ground.

15 Samuel said to Saul, “Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?”

“I am in great distress,” Saul said. “The Philistines are fighting against me, and God has departed from me. He no longer answers me, either by prophets or by dreams. So I have called on you to tell me what to do.”

There was continuing revelation throughout the biblical period. Job knew nothing of a coming messiah. Abraham didn't know of the law. Moses didn't hear the prophecy concerning the coming destruction of the temple.

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(February 13, 2015 at 7:32 pm)Parkers Tan Wrote: Why do you absolve your god of his guilt in those evils? How can an omnipotent being be compelled to do anything?

God has no guilt in those matters. That's how he chose to create the world. Now you tell me how an eternity of peace and happiness offered to everyone who ever lived is not a trait of a loving God?

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(February 13, 2015 at 7:38 pm)Nestor Wrote: Savior from what exactly? The boogieman? Insecurity? Guilt? Fire and brimstone? Annihilation? Global terrorism? Separation anxiety? Kind of sad that you guys can't seem to agree on the most basic points of doctrine that the Creator himself apparently took such efforts to codify.

Eternal death. But if you want eternal death you can choose it. You don't have to accept eternal life. So quit complaining. You seem to be happy enough in this world as it is.

(February 13, 2015 at 8:06 pm)Lek Wrote: There was continuing revelation throughout the biblical period.

Or the religion, like every other part of culture, gradually evolves over time as it picks up from other religions and cultures that it is exposed to. Judea, on the cross roads of three continents and conquered at different times by Macedonia, Egypt and Persia, was probably exposed to outside influences more than other cultures.

So which is more likely:

1. God at first told the Hebrews that there was no life after death and then later said that maybe there's some kind of life after death but we won't go into the details and then finally revealed the whole truth after sending himself down to earth to be his own sacrifice as the only means of convincing himself to forgive us and change his own mind.

2. This religion changed over time as it was exposed to various outside influences.

(February 13, 2015 at 8:06 pm)Lek Wrote: Now you tell me how an eternity of peace and happiness offered to everyone who ever lived is not a trait of a loving God?

"Get on your knees and worship me or spend all eternity in the fires of hell."

Good god. Yeah, right.

(February 13, 2015 at 8:06 pm)Lek Wrote:

(February 13, 2015 at 7:38 pm)Nestor Wrote: Savior from what exactly? The boogieman? Insecurity? Guilt? Fire and brimstone? Annihilation? Global terrorism? Separation anxiety? Kind of sad that you guys can't seem to agree on the most basic points of doctrine that the Creator himself apparently took such efforts to codify.

Eternal death. But if you want eternal death you can choose it. You don't have to accept eternal life. So quit complaining. You seem to be happy enough in this world as it is.

That's impressive logic. If you want something to be true, just lie to yourself that it is, and it becomes true. How lucky I am that my eternal fate depends on what I want! It's too bad nothing in this world works like that!

(February 13, 2015 at 8:15 pm)DeistPaladin Wrote: Or the religion, like every other part of culture, gradually evolves over time as it picks up from other religions and cultures that it is exposed to. Judea, on the cross roads of three continents and conquered at different times by Macedonia, Egypt and Persia, was probably exposed to outside influences more than other cultures.

So which is more likely:

1. God at first told the Hebrews that there was no life after death and then later said that maybe there's some kind of life after death but we won't go into the details and then finally revealed the whole truth after sending himself down to earth to be his own sacrifice as the only means of convincing himself to forgive us and change his own mind.

2. This religion changed over time as it was exposed to various outside influences.

3. That God's plan unfolded over time.

(February 13, 2015 at 8:53 pm)Lek Wrote: 3. That God's plan unfolded over time.

Option 1 then for you. Got it.

God's plan... That's a good one.