(March 5, 2015 at 5:07 pm)ChadWooters Wrote:

(March 5, 2015 at 2:50 pm)Parkers Tan Wrote: And you never answered my request to justify Auschwitz, Cambodia, et al.

There is no justification for human depravity.

... and less still for the evil acts of an omnipotent god.

Also, you as well neglected to answer a question I posed last night.

(March 5, 2015 at 4:45 pm)Lek Wrote:

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(March 5, 2015 at 4:27 pm)abaris Wrote: Well, it's kind of in the job description: Omniscent means all knowing, so that being should by definition know it all.

Your exactly right. So since we're not omniscient, we should not try to tell him what to do.

Quote:And you're right, menkind has influenced the world more than any other being. Mother Earth will shrug us off one day for what we have done. And we're just as important as the universe allows us to be. The next Dynosaur killer might just show us our real importance.

So you're contention is that we are no more important than a meteor. And I know where you're coming from. If we are purely natural beings, then you're right.

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(March 5, 2015 at 4:20 pm)The Reality Salesman Wrote: and if he made everything for us, what's with the 4.5 billion year hiatus between making everything and then coming back to demand that he receives the credit for it? Was he just mad after he watched us evolve into early societies of people who didn't recognize his signature on all of his work? It seems like he waited a really long time to see how us human-things turned out only to see that we would ultimately start making up our own explanations for the things that he thought would be self-evident! Son of a Mary! These things don't work right! I waited 4.5 billion years for this?! Now I gotta send myself down so that they can kill me in order to forgive them for my fuck up...yeah, that'll do it!

(Enter GC with an attempt to rationalize all of that)

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Why do you think he made the whole universe only for us? Who knows what exists throughout the universe? We have no idea of what has been going on out there for those billions of years.

I don't think "he" made anything. My intention was to point out the absurdity of the common Christian view with a satirical post. But, it appears I've missed my mark. I do agree with you about this place not being created with us in mind at the center of it all. This is a pretty inhospitable universe for the most part and it's been kicking our ass for the short time we've been wandering around here. That's good you don't think that way. Though, it's puzzling to me that you don't recignize the crippling implications this idea has on your beliefs. How exactly do you square this up with the bible?
The bible is the source of your belief, right? I'm sorry if you're not a follower of Christ, I just had it in my head that you were for some reason.

(March 5, 2015 at 7:11 pm)The Reality Salesman Wrote: I don't think "he" made anything. My intention was to point out the absurdity of the common Christian view with a satirical post. But, it appears I've missed my mark. I do agree with you about this place not being created with us in mind at the center of it all. This is a pretty inhospitable universe for the most part and it's been kicking our ass for the short time we've been wandering around here. That's good you don't think that way. Though, it's puzzling to me that you don't recignize the crippling implications this idea has on your beliefs. How exactly do you square this up with the bible?
The bible is the source of your belief, right? I'm sorry if you're not a follower of Christ, I just had it in my head that you were for some reason.

I am a christian and I follow the bible, but it doesn't say that God made the whole universe just for us. He did create the earth for us and gave us dominion over all the other creatures here. Since God is eternal, who knows how many things he's been into throughout eternity. What crippling implications does it have for the christian faith?

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(March 5, 2015 at 5:56 pm)Parkers Tan Wrote:

(March 5, 2015 at 5:07 pm)ChadWooters Wrote: There is no justification for human depravity.

... and less still for the evil acts of an omnipotent god.

Also, you as well neglected to answer a question I posed last night.

Sorry. Being the only christian in this thread, I post one thing and get maybe five replies, so I lose track sometimes. God created the world as it is for his own reasons and he came an lived in it also. There are storms, sickness, etc, and I don't know why he made it that way, but it all goes well for those who follow him. As far as Auschwitz and Cambodia, these were situations created by mankind against the wishes of God. Those who perpetrated these atrocities where not acting according to, but rather against God's will. We are to love and care for one another as we live in this world and deal with the things that are inherent to the world. Yes, God created this world in which we must live, with disasters and sickness, but he also experienced life here himself and has offered us something much better. Sorry. That's the way it is. I don't need to apologize for God.

(March 5, 2015 at 7:55 pm)Lek Wrote: God created the world as it is for his own reasons and he came an lived in it also. There are storms, sickness, etc, and I don't know why he made it that way, but it all goes well for those who follow him.

Isn't that convenient?

So, instead of providing a good reason why your god would do those things, you just answer, "God works in mysterious ways". Yeah, that solves it.

How does it work out for those who follow him? Christians die and suffer from disease at the exact same rates as people of other religions, or no religions. Christians that lived in New Orleans were killed, injured and lost property at the same rates as non-Christians.

Quote:but it all goes well for those who follow him

And this is the petty god that you worship? "I could save all these people, but they don't follow me, so, let them suffer and die".

How can you not see that a god that would require worship in order to assure that "all goes well" for his creations, is despicable?

Quote:Yes, God created this world in which we must live, with disasters and sickness, but he also experienced life here himself and has offered us something much better. Sorry. That's the way it is. I don't need to apologize for God.

Any god that would only reward those that follow and worship him, and punish all the rest of humanity, is the one that needs to apologize.

You have sacrificed your own morality in deference to a god that behaves in ways you would never excuse in a human.

If your god actually existed, and the Bible (NT and OT) is any example of his behavior, he should be fought against with all humanity's might. Not worshiped.

(March 5, 2015 at 1:48 pm)Lek Wrote:

(March 5, 2015 at 1:36 pm)FreeTony Wrote: You'd be considered evil if you insisted she wasn't allowed pain medication because the birth wouldn't mean as much without her suffering.

But God did allow the doctors to give her pain mediation.

Why would a god ignore women of third world countries who don't have access to doctors or pain meds?

(March 5, 2015 at 7:55 pm)Lek Wrote:

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(March 5, 2015 at 7:11 pm)The Reality Salesman Wrote: I don't think "he" made anything. My intention was to point out the absurdity of the common Christian view with a satirical post. But, it appears I've missed my mark. I do agree with you about this place not being created with us in mind at the center of it all. This is a pretty inhospitable universe for the most part and it's been kicking our ass for the short time we've been wandering around here. That's good you don't think that way. Though, it's puzzling to me that you don't recignize the crippling implications this idea has on your beliefs. How exactly do you square this up with the bible?
The bible is the source of your belief, right? I'm sorry if you're not a follower of Christ, I just had it in my head that you were for some reason.

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I am a christian and I follow the bible, but it doesn't say that God made the whole universe just for us. He did create the earth for us and gave us dominion over all the other creatures here. Since God is eternal, who knows how many things he's been into throughout eternity. What crippling implications does it have for the christian faith?

I see. Just the earth then? So, you live on this planet, you see how this place is an inherent death trap for us (radiation, viruses/disease, tidal disasters, earth quakes, shortage of natural resources etc.), and you dont see any problematic implications this for a belief that this place is the handy work of a loving and omniscient deity with us in mind at the focal point?

(March 5, 2015 at 8:45 pm)Simon Moon Wrote: So, instead of providing a good reason why your god would do those things, you just answer, "God works in mysterious ways". Yeah, that solves it.

That's not how I answered the question. I answered honestly and said I don't know. He is the creator and only he knows why.

Quote:How does it work out for those who follow him? Christians die and suffer from disease at the exact same rates as people of other religions, or no religions. Christians that lived in New Orleans were killed, injured and lost property at the same rates as non-Christians.

It goes well for christians because we have comfort as we go through these things, knowing that God is with us, and we have hope that there are better things coming. As a believer I don't harbor a lot of anxiety over stuff like that and can live my life more calmly.

Quote:And this is the petty god that you worship? "I could save all these people, but they don't follow me, so, let them suffer and die".

No. Like you stated earlier, christians died, were injured and lost property the same as everyone else. But as I said above........

Quote:How can you not see that a god that would require worship in order to assure that "all goes well" for his creations, is despicable?

Maybe from your point of view. but I think we should give everyone his due.

Quote:Any god that would only reward those that follow and worship him, and punish all the rest of humanity, is the one that needs to apologize.

You just don't want to give God his due. That's called pride. You are right, in that in order to be his followers we must serve him.

Quote:You have sacrificed your own morality in deference to a god that behaves in ways you would never excuse in a human.

How have I sacrificed my morality? I'm not perfect, but try to live the most moral life that I can.

Quote:If your god actually existed, and the Bible (NT and OT) is any example of his behavior, he should be fought against with all humanity's might. Not worshiped.

You've got it all wrong, and I wish I could make you see it as it really is, but I'll let you have the last word.

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(March 5, 2015 at 8:45 pm)h4ym4n Wrote: Why would a god ignore women of third world countries who don't have access to doctors or pain meds?

He doesn't ignore them. He has instructed us to care for our brothers and sisters in the world, but we don't follow him. If everyone followed the teachings of Jesus, everyone would have needed medications.

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(March 5, 2015 at 9:47 pm)The Reality Salesman Wrote: I see. Just the earth then? So, you live on this planet, you see how this place is an inherent death trap for us (radiation, viruses/disease, tidal disasters, earth quakes, shortage of natural resources etc.), and you dont see any problematic implications this for a belief that this place is the handy work of a loving and omniscient deity with us in mind at the focal point?

You guys talk about how the world is a cesspool, but then talk about how great your lives are as atheists. It never ceases to amaze me. You speak as if it's us christians who are not experiencing the fullness of life here because of our belief in God. Yes, I think that God can make a world like this, then accompany us on our journey here, and then take us home to him. We can have peace in this world.

(March 5, 2015 at 9:49 pm)Lek Wrote:

(March 5, 2015 at 8:45 pm)Simon Moon Wrote: So, instead of providing a good reason why your god would do those things, you just answer, "God works in mysterious ways". Yeah, that solves it.

That's not how I answered the question. I answered honestly and said I don't know. He is the creator and only he knows why.

Sorry, but there is no difference between "god works in mysterious ways," and "he is the creator and only he knows why." It's the same thought in different words.

Quote:It goes well for christians because we have comfort as we go through these things, knowing that God is with us, and we have hope that there are better things coming. As a believer I don't harbor a lot of anxiety over stuff like that and can live my life more calmly.

If so, I'd expect Christians to have lower blood pressure, fewer heart attacks, and less mental illness. But it isn't so. And while you seem like a nice enough guy Lek, your comments about life don't suggest a comforted man.

(March 5, 2015 at 9:49 pm)Lek Wrote:

(March 5, 2015 at 8:45 pm)h4ym4n Wrote: Why would a god ignore women of third world countries who don't have access to doctors or pain meds?

He doesn't ignore them. He has instructed us to care for our brothers and sisters in the world, but we don't follow him. If everyone followed the teachings of Jesus, they would have medications.

Even Jesus didn't do that. He lived poor, but he lived off of others. If everyone had done that or given everything away, it would be a very poor world in which no one had invented medications, let alone had them to give away.

Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach him to fish and you feed him for life. Jesus preached the former and had no sense of the later.

(March 5, 2015 at 8:45 pm)h4ym4n Wrote:

(March 5, 2015 at 1:48 pm)Lek Wrote: But God did allow the doctors to give her pain mediation.

Why would a god ignore women of third world countries who don't have access to doctors or pain meds?

god of the bible biased only in helping men.

(March 5, 2015 at 9:49 pm)Lek Wrote:

Quote:I see. Just the earth then? So, you live on this planet, you see how this place is an inherent death trap for us (radiation, viruses/disease, tidal disasters, earth quakes, shortage of natural resources etc.), and you dont see any problematic implications this for a belief that this place is the handy work of a loving and omniscient deity with us in mind at the focal point?

You guys talk about how the world is a cesspool, but then talk about how great your lives are as atheists. It never ceases to amaze me. You speak as if it's us christians who are not experiencing the fullness of life here because of our belief in God. Yes, I think that God can make a world like this, then accompany us on our journey here, and then take us home to him. We can have peace in this world.

Oh Lek, if I point out flaws in the world that pertain to our conversation about a God while on an AtheistForum, it would be very uncouth of you to imply that my ability to observe those things is a sign of my overall general outlook. I do love life, and I do live a fulfilling one. But that doesn't mean that I am unable to point out the flaws in this world if pressed to do so by a person who believes its reasonable to conclude that it was divinely created. Your response to my criticism did not address my point. Instead, you redirected my criticism in an attempt to make me appear as a negative nancy. I think you know perfectly well that my criticism was not a description of my everyday outlook, it was directly in response to your previous question and it was perfectly suited. Would you like to apologize and go for a re-do?