(March 5, 2015 at 2:11 pm)Lek Wrote: That's just the thing. Life makes no sense to an atheist. We live in this world with all this pain and suffering absolutely no reason at all. We're just here by chance. We live through the suffering and try to make the best of it and then we die with no memory of anything that happened. And this goes on and on until the universe self-destructs and something else comes about. All this for absolutely no reason! What kind of sense does this make? I see you as being person who comprehend more than just what you can see on he surface. Maybe you're the one who needs to break out of it. Come out of your scientific box and see that there is more to the world than what floats on the surface. We are spiritual beings as well as physical beings - different from all the other creatures upon the earth.

Life makes perfect sense to me.

My life has plenty of reason to me, to my family, friends, coworkers. Just because something is temporary, does no mean it has no reason or purpose.

Your wishful thinking that you want life to mean more to a god, does not make it true.

Quote:I mean no disrespect by this, but you did mention that you suffer from depression. I know that my anxiety colors my view of the world. Could it be that your depression is a factor that causes you to see the world in an unreal way?

I mean no disprespect, but...

You're the one that believes in all sorts of unsupported, unevidenced, supernatural claims, and he's the one seeing the world in an unreal way?!

Seriously?!

When I shoot down supernatural/spiritual stuff, I don't intend to be mean. I'm just extremely scientific and no-nonsense when it comes to reality, and I know my stuff pretty well. I can see very clearly when something is substantiated, and when it's a mental trap. So I'm not trying to be horrible and to smash up people's worlds. I'm simply evaluating things as I see them. And of course, it's just my opinion and I'm happy to be proved wrong at any point.

I have to police myself as much as I do other people, as I'm far from infallible. I see superstitions and irrational thinking trying to surface and I have to address it.

And I totally understand the idea that we're just "here" and there's no real external point is hard to swallow. It's partly why religion is so appealing, it gives answers. It's just, they aren't real answers. They don't explain anything, they just replace the questions with bigger questions, which they hope you won't look at too closely.

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I've enjoy talking to you to and I'm glad to hear you feel the same I'm sure we'll talk again soon.

If you ever want to send me a PM or chat on Facebook messenger, you're welcome to.

My handle is fuckingatheistdickfuckbrains whoops, I mean it's robvalue (at) yahoo.com if you want a to find me on Facebook and send a friend invite.

(March 5, 2015 at 2:11 pm)Lek Wrote:

(March 5, 2015 at 1:53 pm)robvalue Wrote: Life will make so much more sense once you stop having to twist reality to fit a fairy tale. I feel you have the potential to break out of this, an opportunity most theists on this board will never see. Come on man, you can do it!

That's just the thing. Life makes no sense to an atheist. We live in this world with all this pain and suffering absolutely no reason at all. We're just here by chance.

I happily abandon any thought of the universe having sense or meaning. Searching for either where there is none can only lead to disappointment and confusion. When you really think about it there isn't any more sense or meaning in any humans existence than to their nearest rock.

Even if there were a god and Christianity were true, once you start stretching things infinitely it begins lose all meaning. Where is the sense or meaning behind any moment, event or object an infinite amount of time later?

(March 5, 2015 at 1:28 pm)Lek Wrote: You never answered my question as to whether or not suffering can be good.

And you never answered my request to justify Auschwitz, Cambodia, et al.

OK, please check this out. This pretty much sums up how I feel. I see people being abused. Imagine you see someone being hurt, day after day, and they keep making excuses why it's OK, that the person abusing them loves them really. You'd want to help, right?

Imagine the frustration when you can see that there isn't even another person doing the abuse, it's in fact self inflicted, egged on by those around them?

This is how I feel when I try to "take" people's religion, please watch:

If I didn't care deeply about theists, I wouldn't even be trying to do these debates.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lKaw5SjeHx0

(March 5, 2015 at 2:00 pm)Lek Wrote: We could alleviate most of the poverty and hunger in the third world if every single person followed the instructions of Jesus and fed the hungry, clothed the naked and cared for the sick. That is what we have been called to do, but first we need to change the minds of those who would rather live for themselves. That is the way God has made it. In the very first book of the bible God gave dominion over the creatures of the earth to mankind with the commission to care for the world. Instead, too many of us ignore him and live only for ourselves. God intends for us to be the keepers of the world that he gave us - even though there is suffering involved.

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(March 5, 2015 at 2:11 pm)Lek Wrote: That's just the thing. Life makes no sense to an atheist. We live in this world with all this pain and suffering absolutely no reason at all. We're just here by chance. We live through the suffering and try to make the best of it and then we die with no memory of anything that happened. And this goes on and on until the universe self-destructs and something else comes about. All this for absolutely no reason! What kind of sense does this make?

We all assign our own meaning to our own lives. The difference between you and I is that you've assigned its meaning based on a mythological set of instructions rooted in fear and self-loathing, while I assign it meaning based on love and empathy for those in my circle of family and friends. Simply because you're incapable of understanding the meaning of my life does not make it meaningless -- it makes you incomprehending.

It's the difference between sentimental value and having something appraised.

Say we both have a painting.

You think yours is valuable because someone you recognized as an authority told you it was.

Mine is valuable to me because my 5 year old made it for me on Father's Day.

New information and evidence could effect how valuable you think yours is.

Mine will always be valuable.

And the idea that this life is actually negligible in the grand scheme of things is fucking dangerous. Every time someone makes a decision involving someone dying, because it's OK that they are going on to the "rest of their life", they've just cost someone the only life we have any reason to believe they actually have.

Weird though it is, atheists can easily value life a fuck load more, because we are all in on this life. We don't bank on there being anything else. So that means not just us, but everyone around us, is important. Their feelings and their life is important. If I thought this was all just a little game and it's just a matter of getting to the next level, I dread to think what I would be like. [Obviously not every atheist will be this way! But I know a whole lot are.]

(March 5, 2015 at 3:00 pm)robvalue Wrote: OK, please check this out. This pretty much sums up how I feel. I see people being abused. Imagine you see someone being hurt, day after day, and they keep making excuses why it's OK, that the person abusing them loves them really. You'd want to help, right?

Imagine the frustration when you can see that there isn't even another person doing the abuse, it's in fact self inflicted, egged on by those around them?

This is how I feel when I try to "take" people's religion, please watch:

If I didn't care deeply about theists, I wouldn't even be trying to do these debates.

It's pretty clear to me that you want to help people. I'm on this forum because I want to hear the arguments. Of course, I also want to help people.

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(March 5, 2015 at 3:26 pm)The Reality Salesman Wrote: It's the difference between sentimental value and having something appraised.

Say we both have a painting.

You think yours is valuable because someone you recognized as an authority told you it was.

Mine is valuable to me because my 5 year old made it for me on Father's Day.

New information and evidence could effect how valuable you think yours is.

Mine will always be valuable.

You're right.

(March 5, 2015 at 1:32 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Gods been "going to do that" for a few thousand years at this point, eh? If I promised you I was going to send you a birthday card and it didn't materialize for a few decades you'd write that promise off.....but if god promises paradise and then puts it on hold for a few k....

and if he made everything for us, what's with the 4.5 billion year hiatus between making everything and then coming back to demand that he receives the credit for it? Was he just mad after he watched us evolve into early societies of people who didn't recognize his signature on all of his work? It seems like he waited a really long time to see how us human-things turned out only to see that we would ultimately start making up our own explanations for the things that he thought would be self-evident! Son of a Mary! These things don't work right! I waited 4.5 billion years for this?! Now I gotta send myself down so that they can kill me in order to forgive them for my fuck up...yeah, that'll do it!

(Enter GC with an attempt to rationalize all of that)