I read this letter directed to WLC from Adam, an atheist. In it he claims that while he is not ready to embrace Christianity, his own worldview leads to nihilism.

Quote:"I should have known better too, since the first time I read that paper of yours, I couldn't sleep for two days. It completely shattered my worldview. Let me mention here that I was a huge fan of the New Atheists, but I always sensed something was askew with them. Something seemed off about them because whenever they were talking about meaning, value, or purpose, they answered in such ways that only a person ignorant of the objections in your paper could respond. In short (too late), your paper never left my mind, even years after I wrote a "response" to it. I knew, deep down, that not only did I not, but could not answer your objections to atheism. What you say the atheistic worldview entails is true. There is no escaping the nihilism as an atheist.

He references WLC's paper The Absurdity of Life Without God

I was wondering what your collective response is to the conclusion that atheism leads to nihilism.

Not atheism per se; however, most atheists are also ontological naturalists and/or physical reductionists. Both of these positions lead to existential nihilism.

(March 10, 2015 at 10:35 am)SteveII Wrote: I was wondering what your collective response is to the conclusion that atheism leads to nihilism.

My personal response to that is that we don't have a collective response. We're not a hive mind, you know.

And yet again, a definition is in order.
Atheism is the position that there is no good reason to believe a god exists. Period. It doesn't involve any additional philosophy. Personally I don't think it leads to nihilism in itself.

Now if I got a nickel every time I needed to say that...

Existential nihilism most certainly.
Ethical nihilism certainly not.

The problem you typically have in this discussion is someone either conflating the two or insisting that ethical nihilism necessarily follows from existential nihilism.

It is compatible with Nihilism, but that's it.

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(March 10, 2015 at 10:41 am)Cato Wrote: Existential nihilism most certainly.
Ethical nihilism certainly not.

Very good, I meant ethical

(March 10, 2015 at 10:41 am)Cato Wrote: The problem you typically have in this discussion is someone either conflating the two or insisting that ethical nihilism necessarily follows from existential nihilism.

This is the big point. Atheism, for many people, I imagine, implies that there is no external source of meaning. (See, e.g., Camus for discussions of inventing meaning in the face of meaninglessness.) For instance, I would describe myself as an existential nihilist.

But the more important thing, as Cato hints at, is what does not follow from such a position. Existential nihilism does not necessitate a rejection of morals or morality or ethics. It does not necessitate anarchism, or hedonism, or stoicism, or any other -ism. It does not necessitate sadness or fear (far from it). Existential nihilism, if we call it "a positive belief that life has no extrinsic meaning" (for instance, no meaning given to it by god or immortality), still leaves one with every single option except one for how to live your life.

(March 10, 2015 at 10:41 am)Cato Wrote: Existential nihilism most certainly.
Ethical nihilism certainly not.

The problem you typically have in this discussion is someone either conflating the two or insisting that ethical nihilism necessarily follows from existential nihilism.

Can you explain why ethical nihilism does not necessarily follow?

The claims that extrinsic meaning is either a) superior to intrinsic or b) the only real meaning are arbitrary, and only reflect the subjective valuation of the claimant.

(March 10, 2015 at 10:53 am)SteveII Wrote: Can you explain why ethical nihilism does not necessarily follow?

Because we get to choose the axioms from which we start to argue. No one forces you to start with "anything goes" and take it from there. You're too stuck in the thinking that only "absolute objective" values are a valid starting point for ethics. They are an illusion anyways, just because your religion dictates A,B,C, doesn't make them true nor are they objective, you know?

I don't believe in God, but I do believe that the worth of each person depends entirely on the opinion of my supernatural friend Archie. So I try and do things that please Archie.