What about those disciples?

They come across a situation that has no apparent solution. They say "however can we do this thing?" Jesus says "Don't worry, lads, I've got magic hands" and does something unbelievable. Disciples are amazed.

Turn the page...

They come across another situation with no apparent solution. They say "however can we do this thing?" Jesus says "I've got magic hands, don't you remember?" and does his thing. Disciples are amazed.

Turn the page...

And so on and on and on...

The biggest plot hole is why Jesus didn't firebomb these idiots.

(March 20, 2015 at 7:26 pm)Delicate Wrote: You can be an atheist and still admit that the Bible, as a collection, is a literary masterpiece.

I guess you could, if you wish to denigrate every literary masterpiece ever created.

(March 20, 2015 at 7:26 pm)Delicate Wrote: You don't have to be a theist to appreciate it as a piece of art and monument of culture.

Yes, I think you do.

While the buy-bull may contain a few quotable bits, for the most part it's wandering and incoherent at it's best, muddled and confusing at it's worst.

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(March 20, 2015 at 10:03 pm)KevinM1 Wrote: The bible is criminally overrated as a book. Kevin J Anderson can write more engaging stories, and he's a shitty hack.

Even "Twilight" is better than the buy-bull and Stephanie Meyer makes Kevin J. Anderson look like a Pulitzer quality writer.

Delicate: I wonder, have you actually read the bible as a story from start to finish?

Methinks the real question is, has Delicate read anything better for a real comparison.

@Delicate

Here is a list of books. Read some of them and you will see a difference between a "literary masterpiece" and the bible.

(March 20, 2015 at 7:43 pm)pocaracas Wrote:

(March 20, 2015 at 7:26 pm)Delicate Wrote: Well, for one, "the Bible" is not a singular book, but a collection of several works spanning around 1500 years. There's an incredible amount of cultural/temporal diversity between the various works, despite the fact that the authors all believed in Yahweh.

This is the main problem with it...
The people who wrote it, had no knowledge of any god.... they had no foresight, no insight, nothing tangible... they believed.
Like people believe nowadays, so did they believe back then.

Unless, they knew it was a con...

That's an assload of speculation on your part isn't it?

For all we know, they might really have had these supernatural experiences. Maybe it was drugs. Maybe there really was a God. Maybe it was aliens. Maybe it was supernatural demons/spirits pretending to be God.

It's very hard for me to believe that these longsuffering Israelite peasants wandering through the desert had the time and inclination to make up, memorize, and indoctrinate others into their beliefs if they knew it was all false.

That's a lot of wasted effort that could have gone into farming or hunting or what-not.

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(March 20, 2015 at 8:41 pm)Surgenator Wrote:

(March 20, 2015 at 7:26 pm)Delicate Wrote: You can be an atheist and still admit that the Bible, as a collection, is a literary masterpiece.

All the semi-different cultures doesn't make it a masterpiece. Are the hindu scared texts masterpieces as well? They are a collection of stories.

I don't know about you, but I found the binding of Isaac story incredibly captivating as a child. I still do, in fact.

I might say the same about the Hindus and Gilgamesh as well, if I took the time to look into them. Why not?

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(March 21, 2015 at 3:13 am)robvalue Wrote: Delicate: I wonder, have you actually read the bible as a story from start to finish?

The Bible isn't a story from start to finish...

(March 21, 2015 at 1:34 pm)Delicate Wrote:

(March 20, 2015 at 7:43 pm)pocaracas Wrote: This is the main problem with it...
The people who wrote it, had no knowledge of any god.... they had no foresight, no insight, nothing tangible... they believed.
Like people believe nowadays, so did they believe back then.

Unless, they knew it was a con...

That's an assload of speculation on your part isn't it?

For all we know, they might really have had these supernatural experiences. Maybe it was drugs. Maybe there really was a God. Maybe it was aliens. Maybe it was supernatural demons/spirits pretending to be God.

It's very hard for me to believe that these longsuffering Israelite peasants wandering through the desert had the time and inclination to make up, memorize, and indoctrinate others into their beliefs if they knew it was all false.

That's a lot of wasted effort that could have gone into farming or hunting or what-not.

They were between at least two great theist civilizations: Egypt and Mesopotamia. Their greater work was coming up with something that people would identify with, while not identifying with the neighbors.

For all we know, the writers of the Bible (OT and NT) were people like all people that we know of that are alive today.... and like all these people, they were very human and very flawed and had their beliefs, their ulterior motives, their way of living.
The likelihood of they having access to some supernatural event is similar to the likelihood of people nowadays having access to such an event... negligible.

I consider it FAR FAR more speculative the possibility that they did have experience of some actual supernatural event.
We know humans will say anything to con others... and we know humans are easily conned by someone cunning enough.
We do not know that supernatural events occur.

(March 21, 2015 at 1:34 pm)Delicate Wrote: For all we know, they might really have had these supernatural experiences. Maybe it was drugs. Maybe there really was a God. Maybe it was aliens. Maybe it was supernatural demons/spirits pretending to be God.

Presumably you don't consider all of these options as equally valid, so is there a way to tell which, if any, might be nearer the truth?

(March 21, 2015 at 2:27 pm)pocaracas Wrote:

(March 21, 2015 at 1:34 pm)Delicate Wrote: That's an assload of speculation on your part isn't it?

For all we know, they might really have had these supernatural experiences. Maybe it was drugs. Maybe there really was a God. Maybe it was aliens. Maybe it was supernatural demons/spirits pretending to be God.

It's very hard for me to believe that these longsuffering Israelite peasants wandering through the desert had the time and inclination to make up, memorize, and indoctrinate others into their beliefs if they knew it was all false.

That's a lot of wasted effort that could have gone into farming or hunting or what-not.

They were between at least two great theist civilizations: Egypt and Mesopotamia. Their greater work was coming up with something that people would identify with, while not identifying with the neighbors.

For all we know, the writers of the Bible (OT and NT) were people like all people that we know of that are alive today.... and like all these people, they were very human and very flawed and had their beliefs, their ulterior motives, their way of living.
The likelihood of they having access to some supernatural event is similar to the likelihood of people nowadays having access to such an event... negligible.

I consider it FAR FAR more speculative the possibility that they did have experience of some actual supernatural event.
We know humans will say anything to con others... and we know humans are easily conned by someone cunning enough.
We do not know that supernatural events occur.

Even today, people, who are very flawed and human hardly have time to manufacture grand myths and struggle to live in accordance to them.

I mean, most of the myths I hear concocted are designed to serve some person's interests. David Koresh, or Charles Manson. Most religions don't have such a feature.

You're joking, of course - have you even seen the wealth oozing out of the Catholic Church, for one?

(March 21, 2015 at 2:55 pm)Delicate Wrote: Even today, people, who are very flawed and human hardly have time to manufacture grand myths and struggle to live in accordance to them.

I mean, most of the myths I hear concocted are designed to serve some person's interests. David Koresh, or Charles Manson. Most religions don't have such a feature.

Right.... back then, the rulers used a previously established religion to strengthen their hold on the people.... nowadays, the pre-existing religions already have too strong a hold on the people (and there are many more people) for new cults to grow enough.... also, "Separation of church and state" tends to help.