It's countering God's plan. That's one of the arguments against euthanasia for suffering, terminally ill people.

The problem with that is that it's admitting we can thwart god. Haha.

(March 24, 2015 at 8:21 am)Chas Wrote:

(March 24, 2015 at 1:47 am)urlawyer Wrote:

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Greetings fellow species members, I was tinkering around with some thoughts in my head and followed a certain line of reasoning that, wouldn't ya know it, lead to the first original argument I had since becoming atheist (gotta start somewhere right? ). I don't know if it's original in the sense that I'm the first person to come up with it (I'd be astounded if I was, and a little worried too) but it was original to me in the sense that I didn't just see this point posted on a forum or in a book somewhere.
So I wanted to put it out there to the community and see how it would hold up under scrutiny. If at all possible I'd like at least one christian to respond to this. So with that out there, here's my thought:

All the time I hear of "God's plan" and how he puts hardships onto people for the good of their spiritual growth. This ranges from losing your car keys on the day of an interview to getting shot and becoming a paraplegic. Even death comes into the equation. If someone dies inexplicably, a christian can say that they're in heaven now and God sacrificed them for the good of the people still alive it would affect (one can argue about how God contradicts "free will" here but I want to bypass this and talk about a different point). This might help with the seemingly pointless deaths of adults but what about the little ones?

Every year around the globe, children and infants die due to disease, famine, war and some unpreventable causes. The U.S saw 24,000 infants die in 2011 alone, and we're a relatively safe place to live on the inside. What spiritual growth does this instill?

Let me answer this myself since I can already hear it. "The parents will be strengthened through their hardship knowing that when they die, their children will be waiting on the other side in heaven." And indeed I see this point frequently with parents who have lost a young child or miscarried. "My child was too young to comprehend the world and accept Jesus before he died but I received a vision from God telling me that my child is with him. Isn't God merciful?" The stance here being that the child couldn't make a decision due to the lack of proper mental faculties so God being a merciful and loving god gave them a free pass into heaven. So everything is roses and snickerdoodles, great.

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If that's the case then what I want to propose is this: Should we kill our babies before they have a chance to understand having a choice? I mean think about it. They won't have to toil, they won't have to experience pain, they won't have to go through that awkward teenage puberty phase and they won't have the chance to doubt God and get themselves thrown in hell for all eternity. It might end up getting yourself thrown into hell in the end but wouldn't you do anything to guarantee the eternal bliss of your children? Heck, you might even get out of the whole hell bit if you truly repent and ask for forgiveness, win-win.
What say you? Why shouldn't we just kill our babies outright?

Well, that seems a modest proposal.

Yes, and because the children's corpses no longer house their souls we could use Swift's idea to solve world hunger.

(March 24, 2015 at 8:28 am)robvalue Wrote: Hey, I'll pretend to be a theist and give you my best counter argument:

I am capable of error and of being deceived. I cannot gamble with my children's lives, who I am here to protect, because there's always the slight chance I am mistaken about how Christianity works or about whether it is real at all.

Wow, I feel like you gave a better argument than I would get from most christians. I appreciate it

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So you're saying that you don't have enough faith in your own religion and your moral standard is too high for you to warrant the death of an innocent human being? Well isn't that convenient for someone who believes in a god who revels in the wholesale slaughter of innocents throughout the entire old testament, who constantly tells his followers to "keep faith and you shall inherit the kingdom of heaven," and who himself declares that the children are more likely to get into heaven than an average adult. He even says that the children have no knowledge of good and evil and are thus blameless.
If you're worried you're mistaken how christianity works, why don't you take the bible's literal meanings instead of the countless interpretations from countless ministers and put them to the test? Can't go wrong if you take it to the roots right?

(March 24, 2015 at 9:15 am)urlawyer Wrote:

(March 24, 2015 at 8:28 am)robvalue Wrote: Hey, I'll pretend to be a theist and give you my best counter argument:

I am capable of error and of being deceived. I cannot gamble with my children's lives, who I am here to protect, because there's always the slight chance I am mistaken about how Christianity works or about whether it is real at all.

Wow, I feel like you gave a better argument than I would get from most christians. I appreciate it

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So you're saying that you don't have enough faith in your own religion and your moral standard is too high for you to warrant the death of an innocent human being? Well isn't convenient for someone who believes in a god who revels in the wholesale slaughter of innocents throughout the entire old testament, who constantly tells his followers to "keep faith and you shall inherit the kingdom of heaven," and who himself declares that the children are more likely to get into heaven than an average adult. He even says that the children have no knowledge of good and evil and are thus blameless.
If you're worried you're mistaken how christianity works, why don't you take the bible's literal meanings instead of the countless interpretations from countless ministers and put them to the test? Can't go wrong if you take it to the roots right?

Theists will probably ignore this thread

When asked if they would sacrifice their children if god asked, most online Christians will respond that god would never require them to do something like that and refuse to answer more questions.

(March 24, 2015 at 9:20 am)Nope Wrote: Theists will probably ignore this thread

When asked if they would sacrifice their children if god asked, most online Christians will respond that god would never require them to do something like that and refuse to answer more questions.

Despite the fact that he does just that throughout the old testament.

(March 24, 2015 at 1:47 am)urlawyer Wrote: Greetings fellow species members, I was tinkering around with some thoughts in my head and followed a certain line of reasoning that, wouldn't ya know it, lead to the first original argument I had since becoming atheist (gotta start somewhere right? ). I don't know if it's original in the sense that I'm the first person to come up with it (I'd be astounded if I was, and a little worried too) but it was original to me in the sense that I didn't just see this point posted on a forum or in a book somewhere.
So I wanted to put it out there to the community and see how it would hold up under scrutiny. If at all possible I'd like at least one christian to respond to this. So with that out there, here's my thought:

All the time I hear of "God's plan" and how he puts hardships onto people for the good of their spiritual growth. This ranges from losing your car keys on the day of an interview to getting shot and becoming a paraplegic. Even death comes into the equation. If someone dies inexplicably, a christian can say that they're in heaven now and God sacrificed them for the good of the people still alive it would affect (one can argue about how God contradicts "free will" here but I want to bypass this and talk about a different point). This might help with the seemingly pointless deaths of adults but what about the little ones?

Spiritual growth is not always apart of a given event. The oppertunity for spiritual growth is simply presented. Other times Really tragic events like this are the inadverdant consenquence of a answered prayer.
(Think monkey's paw but on a greater good scale.)
Sometimes we pray for a spiritual awakining or a closer/better understanding of God, or even more responsiblity. But, in order for this to happen God must break us. Break our will, our pride and sometimes of our current understanding and faith in Him. Why? Because all of those things can potentialy be toxic to a that greater understanding or relationship with Him, and dependant on how hard our hearts are, It could take something like the death of a child to awaken or properly stir a cold callous heart who is set in it's ways and beliefs.

Nothing like, that kind of death to have one question everything.

Now, what of the child? Is it fair is it_______ (fill in the blank with whatever personally righteous judgement you like) Spiritually, no harm comes to the child. because he/she is returning to The Heavenly Father who loves him/her far more than any parent could ever hope to. So what does He do with them then? I believe the child is to be plugged in to another family or God could have them wait for the parent. (depends on the circumstance)

Understand, Death is our great trageity (those who remain here in this life) for the rest of creation including the dead themselves, Death becomes our birth into eternity, our return home.

Quote:Every year around the globe, children and infants die due to disease, famine, war and some unpreventable causes. The U.S saw 24,000 infants die in 2011 alone, and we're a relatively safe place to live on the inside. What spiritual growth does this instill?

Let me answer this myself since I can already hear it. "The parents will be strengthened through their hardship knowing that when they die, their children will be waiting on the other side in heaven." And indeed I see this point frequently with parents who have lost a young child or miscarried. "My child was too young to comprehend the world and accept Jesus before he died but I received a vision from God telling me that my child is with him. Isn't God merciful?" The stance here being that the child couldn't make a decision due to the lack of proper mental faculties so God being a merciful and loving god gave them a free pass into heaven. So everything is roses and snickerdoodles, great.

Actually Paul tells us in Roman's 7 that it was when he understood the law and did wrong, was the point he was to be judged by and found guilty of breaking the law. Meaning one does have to be of a certain mental capasity inorder to be judged/worry about judgement.

Quote:If that's the case then what I want to propose is this: Should we kill our babies before they have a chance to understand having a choice? I mean think about it. They won't have to toil, they won't have to experience pain, they won't have to go through that awkward teenage puberty phase and they won't have the chance to doubt God and get themselves thrown in hell for all eternity. It might end up getting yourself thrown into hell in the end but wouldn't you do anything to guarantee the eternal bliss of your children? Heck, you might even get out of the whole hell bit if you truly repent and ask for forgiveness, win-win.
What say you? Why shouldn't we just kill our babies outright?

The purpose of this life is to be given a time away from God's known glory so we can know and live out our eternal fates, with the understanding of How God's is indeed fair and just.

Could you imagine being sent to hell moments after being created in the glory of God, because of something God says you would do, without the chance to prove to yourself whether or not you are indeed the unrepentant sin monster he says you are?

So the question then becomes if you cut your child's life short (before he could proove to himself whether or not he will be found righteous before God or sinful..) Why wouldn't God simply plug Him back in to another non-monsterous/murderous family, so he could live a full life and face a fair judgement?

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(March 24, 2015 at 2:38 am)robvalue Wrote: You are right, that would be the logical conclusion for christians. It has actually happened before as well, a woman killed her kid to "send it to heaven". Luckily most christians don't really believe it and would rather risk their child going to hell.

It shows how dangerous this kind of magical thinking can be.

Only if Christianity/God works as the OP understands it to work.

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(March 24, 2015 at 9:20 am)Nope Wrote:

(March 24, 2015 at 9:15 am)urlawyer Wrote: Wow, I feel like you gave a better argument than I would get from most christians. I appreciate it

---

So you're saying that you don't have enough faith in your own religion and your moral standard is too high for you to warrant the death of an innocent human being? Well isn't convenient for someone who believes in a god who revels in the wholesale slaughter of innocents throughout the entire old testament, who constantly tells his followers to "keep faith and you shall inherit the kingdom of heaven," and who himself declares that the children are more likely to get into heaven than an average adult. He even says that the children have no knowledge of good and evil and are thus blameless.
If you're worried you're mistaken how christianity works, why don't you take the bible's literal meanings instead of the countless interpretations from countless ministers and put them to the test? Can't go wrong if you take it to the roots right?

Theists will probably ignore this thread

When asked if they would sacrifice their children if god asked, most online Christians will respond that god would never require them to do something like that and refuse to answer more questions.

Said the baker to the helper watch for the dough to rise, "Give it time, Give it time."

(March 24, 2015 at 1:47 am)urlawyer Wrote: If that's the case then what I want to propose is this: Should we kill our babies before they have a chance to understand having a choice?

I assume you're putting this forward to those who believe that a dead child will automatically go to heaven. The reply from such a person would likely be to point out that their god also forbids murder, and that therefore they do not have the freedom to slaughter every child in order to save it. It does create the opportunity for the ultimate sacrifice: a parent who condemns himself or herself to eternal hell in order to guarantee that their children enjoy eternal heaven. It makes you wonder, though: could god really deny such a person from spending eternity in heaven? His own sacrifice (a relative blink of an eye of suffering and 'death') pales in comparison, especially since his would not guarantee salvation the way this parent's sacrifice would.

Since the believer can interpret his holy text however he needs to in order to paper over such loopholes, I am sure that there is a ready explanation that prevents such a plan from working. As a bonus, it would probably be a very entertaining discussion.

Quote:So the question then becomes if you cut your child's life short (before he could proove to himself whether or not he will be found righteous before God or sinful..) Why wouldn't God simply plug Him back in to another non-monsterous/murderous family, so he could live a full life and face a fair judgement?

Wouldn't an omniscient god already know if the child would grow up to be a good christian or not? Or better yet if he would be killed off by a zealot? In both cases, why would he "plug in" the kid knowing full well he would end up in eternal damnation?

Url: Nice rebuttal to my argument My pretend christian is now having a crisis of faith.

And yes, the idea that God is omniscient is so ludicrous that it collapses the whole system into nonsense. Try getting someone to admit to that though :p

To Huggy's credit he did answer the question of whether he'd kill his family if God commanded, he said no. No other theist has been able to answer as far as I know.