(March 24, 2015 at 12:44 pm)Drich Wrote:

(March 24, 2015 at 11:29 am)urlawyer Wrote: Ok, so perhaps I should reshape my question another way: why wouldn't god just create people he knew would be good and obedient? They could still have free will and have their faith challenged in a healthy and growth providing way, but in the end no one would have to suffer eternal torment.

Because God knows if you take the good, and then you take the bad, and you take them both, thier you have the facts of Life... The facts of life.



In truth 'the bad' often times are fodder or flux needed to turn iron into harden steel. The bad serve a purpose. In that they help the good to be shaped better.

I think you're still misunderstanding me here... or maybe I'm misunderstanding you since that first sentence made no real sense in standard English.

What I'm trying to say is that your god, being an omniscient god, can see what will happen were he to create a certain human. Why not, instead of creating all these people who will burn in hell for their disbelief or otherwise, just make people he knows will eventually make it to heaven? Keep in mind that just because a person will get into heaven doesn't mean he will always be good or have good things happen to him while here on earth. Take for instance all the mass murderers who were faithful or the sick and dying who accept on their deathbed. You still have free will, good and evil and a plethora of different experiences that will challenge your faith, the only difference is that no one will end up in hell because God was able to stop it before hand.

(March 24, 2015 at 12:44 pm)Drich Wrote:

Quote:So do you follow all the old testament laws God provided?

Luke 16:17

It is easier for heaven and earth to disappear than for the least stroke of a pen to drop out of the Law.

Christ meant the whole law.. So what does the whole law mean? Does it stop at a list of do's and dont's? Absolutly not. The law also makes provisions for attonement for sin. In finding and excepting the atonement offered by Christ we complete the whole law.

You're dodging the question here Drich, but from what it sounds like you're actually adding more to the laws of the old testament. Why don't you give a run through Leviticus and tell me which laws you still practice today.

(March 24, 2015 at 1:47 am)urlawyer Wrote: If that's the case then what I want to propose is this: Should we kill our babies before they have a chance to understand having a choice? I mean think about it. They won't have to toil, they won't have to experience pain, they won't have to go through that awkward teenage puberty phase and they won't have the chance to doubt God and get themselves thrown in hell for all eternity. It might end up getting yourself thrown into hell in the end but wouldn't you do anything to guarantee the eternal bliss of your children? Heck, you might even get out of the whole hell bit if you truly repent and ask for forgiveness, win-win.
What say you? Why shouldn't we just kill our babies outright?

Coming into this 4/5 page late but...
Instead of killing babies, why don't you propose that we just halt baby making all together. Just have sex for fun and not for the purpose of continuing civilization.

Sounds to me to be the better alternative. Doncha think?

(March 24, 2015 at 12:44 pm)Drich Wrote: 1) there are so many things wrong with this statement I don't know where to begin...

In your estimation when did God create Hell? Use Genesis and point to one of the seven days listed... Just about every single account of Hell shows it to be the absents of creation, the death of it, or the place where the created is destroyed.
(The grave, the pit, the lake of fire, eternal darkness.) to me hell seems to be the absence of creation, not part of it.

This is a meaningless assertion since god still allows it to be there as an eternal place of of suffering.

(March 24, 2015 at 12:44 pm)Drich Wrote: Second you mention an all loving God.. Where in the bible does it say God is supposed to be all loving? Matter of fact the bible says the exact opposite. There are those in whom God hates..

This I can agree with. God is depicted quite frequently doing loveless things. Like leveling whole cities and committing mass genocide.

(March 24, 2015 at 12:44 pm)Drich Wrote: Third what makes you think we are all God's creation? The bible only ever says God created Adam, and from Adam God took a rib and then produced Eve, every other being after that was a reproduction of what God initially created.

Job 10:8-12
Your hands fashioned and made me, and now you have destroyed me altogether. Remember that you have made me like clay; and will you return me to the dust? Did you not pour me out like milk and curdle me like cheese? You clothed me with skin and flesh, and knit me together with bones and sinews. You have granted me life and steadfast love, and your care has preserved my spirit.

Ephesians 4:24
And to put on the new self, created after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness.

Psalms 22:9-10
Yet you are he who took me from the womb; you made me trust you at my mother's breasts. On you was I cast from my birth, and from my mother's womb you have been my God.

These are only just a few.

(March 24, 2015 at 12:44 pm)Drich Wrote: Forth the things of life all take meaning if one can first focus on God.

I would beg to differ. Because of god's plan, everything is laid out for us and no matter what, we're going to end up where we're going to end up. This life would then be a pointless "showing" that we're what God knew we were all along.

(March 24, 2015 at 12:44 pm)Drich Wrote: That is four wrong statements for four charges stated. That's a new record

Indeed

(March 24, 2015 at 1:11 pm)urlawyer Wrote:

(March 24, 2015 at 12:44 pm)Drich Wrote: Because God knows if you take the good, and then you take the bad, and you take them both, thier you have the facts of Life... The facts of life.

I think you're still misunderstanding me here... or maybe I'm misunderstanding you since that first sentence made no real sense in standard English.

No... this first sentence came from the opening song of a tv show called The Facts Of Life. 80's kids will get it. Thanks Drich. Now I have that damn song stuck in my head.

Oh, well now I feel kind of silly arguing with song lyrics... :|

Drich Wrote:Other times Really tragic events like this are the inadverdant consenquence of a answered prayer.

Prayer doesn't do shit.

Drich Wrote:But, in order for this to happen God must break us. Break our will, our pride and sometimes of our current understanding and faith in Him. Why? Because all of those things can potentialy be toxic to a that greater understanding or relationship with Him, and dependant on how hard our hearts are, It could take something like the death of a child to awaken or properly stir a cold callous heart who is set in it's ways and beliefs.

This might possibly be the dumbest bunch of shit I have ever heard. And this is why there is no reason to believe in a magical being that creates us in order to break us. Seriously stupid shit you xians buy into.
If you cannot question why your god who, is by your book, all knowing, all powerful, would willingly create people then break them down in order to lift them back up, then there is something wrong with your line of thinking.

1 John chapter 4 seems to indicate that the writer thought their god was love itself

Quote:7 Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. 8The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love.

I agree with Drich, his god is an asshole but the bible does state that god is love. Urlawyer, Drich is a Calvinist and does not believe in an omnibenevolent deity.

If god really did show up to a christian, they saw with no doubt that it really is god, and here he is telling them to murder their own baby or something...

Wouldn't that be the point to stand up to him? It's not some age old story anymore, he's right in front of you telling you to smite your kid. When he can obviously do it himself. He just wants to watch you do it.

Come on christians, wouldn't you tell him to go fuck himself?

The OP was a bit of a stray cannon but this subject leaves a bad taste.

CFS are discussing a similar topic and the variety and disagreement of how children and babies are segregated into heaven and hell is, quite frankly, a conversation that should never take place.

http://www.christianforumsite.com/index....eads/42014

"They should be 7 years old, their parents passed the sin, parents sin is not passed on so they go to heaven, 18 years old is the age that they can accept Jesus and go to heaven"

How the fuck can anyone think that arguing about this is in any way rational?

(March 24, 2015 at 8:52 am)AFTT47 Wrote: It's countering God's plan. That's one of the arguments against euthanasia for suffering, terminally ill people.

And the people who are claiming it's counter to gawd's plan are presuming to know the mind of gawd.