(March 23, 2015 at 12:53 pm)daver49 Wrote:

(March 23, 2015 at 10:31 am)Thackerie Wrote: I'm not part of this "we" that the Delicate dude refers to, either. I find his "we all wish" statement extremely offensive. Even given the anonymous nature of internet forums, I would be ashamed to be associated with such nastiness, as would anyone with any class and conscience.

Are you saying you don't like his "we we?"

oui — bien sûr que oui !

The fastest way to become an atheist is to read these ridiculous holy books. I find that I know a lot more about the Bible than Christians who spend all their time thumping it, but never crack the book open.

(March 26, 2015 at 8:11 pm)Cephus Wrote: The fastest way to become an atheist is to read these ridiculous holy books. I find that I know a lot more about the Bible than Christians who spend all their time thumping it, but never crack the book open.

Which never ceases to amaze me.

Think about it. If I really did believe that God, the very Creator of the universe wrote a book, what could possibly be more important than reading it? Forget about any afterlife. Just the knowledge, wisdom and moral guidance that this book should be expected to contain would make reading it a crash priority. Is mowing your lawn more important than reading a book written by the Creator? Is watching your favorite TV show more important? What's holding you back from finding the time?

Just one of many things that makes no sense.

(March 27, 2015 at 12:30 am)DeistPaladin Wrote: Which never ceases to amaze me.

Think about it. If I really did believe that God, the very Creator of the universe wrote a book, what could possibly be more important than reading it? Forget about any afterlife. Just the knowledge, wisdom and moral guidance that this book should be expected to contain would make reading it a crash priority. Is mowing your lawn more important than reading a book written by the Creator? Is watching your favorite TV show more important? What's holding you back from finding the time?

Just one of many things that makes no sense.

But they have "specially trained" pastors and priests who will stand up and tell them what's in there and what it really means. It's much more difficult to sort out all of those clearly contradictory passages and decide which parts are worthwhile and which ones aren't so most of them don't bother. Of course, most of them don't really buy into the whole Christianity thing anyhow, they just pretend because they think it makes them look good to the neighbors. If they actually gave a damn, like you said, they'd find time to do their own work, but most of them would recognize just how ridiculous the Bible really is and never bother again.

He's such a good author that he needs a network of professional filters on legs to pick out the bits that he "really meant" so you can avoid accidentally reading about how he is the most evil character in history.

(March 27, 2015 at 1:54 am)Cephus Wrote:

(March 27, 2015 at 12:30 am)DeistPaladin Wrote: Which never ceases to amaze me.

Think about it. If I really did believe that God, the very Creator of the universe wrote a book, what could possibly be more important than reading it? Forget about any afterlife. Just the knowledge, wisdom and moral guidance that this book should be expected to contain would make reading it a crash priority. Is mowing your lawn more important than reading a book written by the Creator? Is watching your favorite TV show more important? What's holding you back from finding the time?

Just one of many things that makes no sense.

But they have "specially trained" pastors and priests who will stand up and tell them what's in there and what it really means. It's much more difficult to sort out all of those clearly contradictory passages and decide which parts are worthwhile and which ones aren't so most of them don't bother. Of course, most of them don't really buy into the whole Christianity thing anyhow, they just pretend because they think it makes them look good to the neighbors. If they actually gave a damn, like you said, they'd find time to do their own work, but most of them would recognize just how ridiculous the Bible really is and never bother again.

They know where all the nice parts and parts that sound reasonable are and read out those, over and over again.

"Look here" they say, "don't look over there"

They like the bits that they can crow bar to support whatever prejudice they are peddling that week and can turn any situation into a comment about jesus or god.

"I was driving here to day and passed a prius, that made me think of when Paul was on the road to Damascus....."

Pah organised religion, controlling the simple minded since 5000 bc.

"Look, just shut the fuck up, ok? Just - just shut up! Shut up! Shut up!

"Well, we're all of us shut up in our own way, aren't we? As the Lord said to the apostle Philip..."

(March 23, 2015 at 6:43 am)pocaracas Wrote: Keep using those delicate neurons in your head... you may get there...

It doesn't look like anyone will get there, frankly. You're on your own on that little island. 

(March 8, 2015 at 3:38 am)warrior02 Wrote: All I ask of you guys here, is to read a bible. For me, the bible personally enlightened me and reinforces my religion. Instead of retaining your knowledge by what you hear from Christians, actually read the scriptures that the religion is based off of.

I have. I taught it in churches for a living.

(March 30, 2015 at 1:23 am)Delicate Wrote:

(March 23, 2015 at 6:43 am)pocaracas Wrote: Keep using those delicate neurons in your head... you may get there...

It doesn't look like anyone will get there, frankly. You're on your own on that little island. 

wow... I thought you'd gone...

I'll be nice, now... I'm in that mood...

Let's see how it went.... first, you said:

(March 20, 2015 at 7:26 pm)Delicate Wrote: Well, for one, "the Bible" is not a singular book, but a collection of several works spanning around 1500 years. There's an incredible amount of cultural/temporal diversity between the various works, despite the fact that the authors all believed in Yahweh.

my bold.

To which I replied, agreeing with you:

(March 20, 2015 at 7:43 pm)pocaracas Wrote: The people who wrote it, had no knowledge of any god.... they had no foresight, no insight, nothing tangible... they believed.
Like people believe nowadays, so did they believe back then.

Unless, they knew it was a con...

And you replied with

(March 21, 2015 at 1:34 pm)Delicate Wrote: That's an assload of speculation on your part isn't it?

For all we know, they might really have had these supernatural experiences. Maybe it was drugs. Maybe there really was a God. Maybe it was aliens. Maybe it was supernatural demons/spirits pretending to be God.

It's very hard for me to believe that these longsuffering Israelite peasants wandering through the desert had the time and inclination to make up, memorize, and indoctrinate others into their beliefs if they knew it was all false.

That's a lot of wasted effort that could have gone into farming or hunting or what-not.

Why the hostility?... I was agreeing with you!!

However, I just kept with the speculation... you were enjoying it so much, I figured, what the heck?...

(March 21, 2015 at 2:27 pm)pocaracas Wrote: They were between at least two great theist civilizations: Egypt and Mesopotamia. Their greater work was coming up with something that people would identify with, while not identifying with the neighbors.

For all we know, the writers of the Bible (OT and NT) were people like all people that we know of that are alive today.... and like all these people, they were very human and very flawed and had their beliefs, their ulterior motives, their way of living.
The likelihood of they having access to some supernatural event is similar to the likelihood of people nowadays having access to such an event... negligible.

I consider it FAR FAR more speculative the possibility that they did have experience of some actual supernatural event.
We know humans will say anything to con others... and we know humans are easily conned by someone cunning enough.
We do not know that supernatural events occur.

See? I'm still agreeing with your initial premise: they believed it.
And you went on analyzing the very real human psychology of today:

(March 21, 2015 at 2:55 pm)Delicate Wrote: Even today, people, who are very flawed and human hardly have time to manufacture grand myths and struggle to live in accordance to them.

I mean, most of the myths I hear concocted are designed to serve some person's interests. David Koresh, or Charles Manson. Most religions don't have such a feature.

And I gave you some perspective on the same human psychology of old:

(March 21, 2015 at 2:58 pm)pocaracas Wrote: Right.... back then, the rulers used a previously established religion to strengthen their hold on the people.... nowadays, the pre-existing religions already have too strong a hold on the people (and there are many more people) for new cults to grow enough.... also, "Separation of church and state" tends to help.

And then, you accused me of

(March 21, 2015 at 3:02 pm)Delicate Wrote: It doesn't worry you, the ad hoc nature of your explanations?

To which I gave you even more questions

(March 21, 2015 at 3:57 pm)pocaracas Wrote: Doesn't it worry you that there are more than one religion?
That there is more than one belief?
That there is more than one deity in recorded history?

If any one deity is real, how would it allow others? why?
If it made itself known to some people, why wouldn't it make itself known to other people? Why would it rely on the faulty human transmission method? Why would it allow that method to incubate the astonishing diversity of beliefs we know of, today?

My explanations are based on human psychology, politics, power hunger, population control...
Any theist explanation is based on woo and hearsay.
Considering we have no access to the actual origin of the woo, we have to rely on some sort of probabilities...
Which strikes you as more reliable? woo or psychology?

If my attempt at explaining the religious devotion we see today and see recorded in historic records is ad hoc and, hence, likely false, then those first questions must arise. Assuming that one religion is portraying reality, then whence cometh the other religions?


This is when your delicate brain failed you terribly...

(March 21, 2015 at 7:20 pm)Delicate Wrote: I'm not worried by religious pluralism or pluralism of any sort. To me it's the same as aesthetic and musical diversity. Linguistic diversity and other forms of cultural diversity.

But I don't think you can avoid the ad hocness of your explanations by asking me a different question. Your explanations are ad hoc, and this weakness of theirs remains, right?

Accusations to distract from the heart of the matter... almost as if you missed my previous point...
It was also when I explained further

(March 21, 2015 at 8:01 pm)pocaracas Wrote: Forgive me, milady.... I was mistaken as to the meaning of "ad hoc"....
Now that I've taken the time to instruct myself, I must kindly disagree.

My explanation is far from ad hoc.
It flows from our slim knowledge of how life was back then and our present knowledge of human psychology.... and takes a few hints from today's missing divine.
Nothing ad hoc about it as it is quite applicable to any civilization. Many strategies have been devised, throughout the years... centuries, or even millennia, in order to keep a substantial number of people living together without them becoming a violent mess.
Religion has the merit of being one of the best methods yet found... If it was minimally thought out at the start or if it evolved into the control mechanism it became, I cannot tell.... there is no record of it... or, if there is, it hasn't been brought to my attention. And, if there ever was such evidence, it would stand to reason that the people in control and possession of it would be very interested in having it destroyed.

But the themes in the various cults do seem to have suffered some form of path from a simpler, more nature-oriented version (such as can be found in animism and shamanism) to the widely known present-day transcendental one.

I gave you more psychology...
And what did you do?

(March 22, 2015 at 3:14 pm)Delicate Wrote: Milady? I get the whole fedora atheist reference, but I'm a dude.

What actual research have you done to look into the issue? I mean besides just making up your theory?

Ask me where psychology comes from...
And I gave you a few psychology sources, thinking it would be enough...

(March 22, 2015 at 6:11 pm)pocaracas Wrote: http://www.psy.miami.edu/faculty/mmccull...lletin.pdf

http://bernhard-hommel.eu/Religion%20as%...0guide.pdf

And for extra points:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17174860

but nooooo.... Just couldn't use that noggin... So I just gave up and went the easy way of insult.