I sense a ban hammer coming soon.

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@Mystic

FYI: this is a discussion forum not a class.

(April 9, 2015 at 5:22 pm)Surgenator Wrote: How about we avoid an ambiguous god and go straight to Allah. Where is proof that Allah exist?

God is manifest through his light. "God is the light of the heavens and the earth". His light is the reality of praise, greatness, goodness. If you can witness the reality of goodness and praise, and see their partial eternal reality, you will see God. 

He also gave us knowledge of himself aside from the manifestation of his glory and light in creation that is properly basic.

The reminders to God's Absolute greatness are to remind us of something we inwardly know.

If you are looking for scientific proof you won't find it with me. I do offer some philosophical proofs like the following:

1. Goodness to be objective, cannot be arbitrary.

2. Objective Goodness exists (assumption).
3. If a Creator can decide/create what is goodness, then goodness would be arbitrary. (For example, if it can decide rape is good, then it would be arbitrary)
4. Therefore a Creator cannot create objective goodness.
5. If a Creator cannot create objective goodness, then nothing can, including evolution, as a Creator can create evolution, and anything that would be able to create morality.
6. Therefore objective goodness is eternal.
7. Goodness is not separate from consciousness.
8. Therefore consciousness is eternal.
9. Ultimate goodness is included in definition of objective goodness.
10. Therefore Ultimate goodness exists eternally.

1. Greatness to be objective, cannot be arbitrary.
2. Objective greatness exists (assumption).
3. If a Creator can decide/create what is great, then greatness would be arbitrary. (For example, if it can decide rape is great, then it would be arbitrary)
4. Therefore a Creator cannot create objective greatness.
5. If a Creator cannot create objective greatness, then nothing can, including evolution, as a Creator can create evolution, and anything that would be able to create morality.
6. Therefore objective greatness is eternal.
7. Ultimate greatness is included in definition of objective greatness.
8. Therefore Ultimate greatness exists eternally.
9. Ultimate greatness is not separate from consciousness.
10. Therefore consciousness is eternal.

Ultimate Greatness is equivalent to 'God' 

(April 9, 2015 at 5:51 pm)MysticKnight Wrote:

(April 9, 2015 at 5:22 pm)Surgenator Wrote: How about we avoid an ambiguous god and go straight to Allah. Where is proof that Allah exist?

God is manifest through his light. "God is the light of the heavens and the earth". His light is the reality of praise, greatness, goodness. If you can witness the reality of goodness and praise, and see their partial eternal reality, you will see God. 

He also gave us knowledge of himself aside from the manifestation of his glory and light in creation that is properly basic.

The reminders to God's Absolute greatness are to remind us of something we inwardly know.

If you are looking for scientific proof you won't find it with me. I do offer some philosophical proofs like the following:

1. Goodness to be objective, cannot be arbitrary.

2. Objective Goodness exists (assumption).
3. If a Creator can decide/create what is goodness, then goodness would be arbitrary. (For example, if it can decide rape is good, then it would be arbitrary)
4. Therefore a Creator cannot create objective goodness.
5. If a Creator cannot create objective goodness, then nothing can, including evolution, as a Creator can create evolution, and anything that would be able to create morality.
6. Therefore objective goodness is eternal.
7. Goodness is not separate from consciousness.
8. Therefore consciousness is eternal.
9. Ultimate goodness is included in definition of objective goodness.
10. Therefore Ultimate goodness exists eternally.

I don't agree that objective goodness exist. As implied in your 7, goodness is a concept that only exist in minds. For an objective goodness to exist, it cannot depend on a mind. 

Quote:1. Greatness to be objective, cannot be arbitrary.
2. Objective greatness exists (assumption).
3. If a Creator can decide/create what is great, then greatness would be arbitrary. (For example, if it can decide rape is great, then it would be arbitrary)
4. Therefore a Creator cannot create objective greatness.
5. If a Creator cannot create objective greatness, then nothing can, including evolution, as a Creator can create evolution, and anything that would be able to create morality.
6. Therefore objective greatness is eternal.
7. Ultimate greatness is included in definition of objective greatness.
8. Therefore Ultimate greatness exists eternally.
9. Ultimate greatness is not separate from consciousness.
10. Therefore consciousness is eternal.

Ultimate Greatness is equivalent to 'God' 

Again, don't agree with 2. Second, objective greatness is poorly defined because it depends on whose is evaluating what is great. In both of your proofs, your relying on minds yet you want to be objective.

If objective goodness doesn't exist, then goodness is a delusion, it exist in our minds, but we have no reason to act upon it.

And just because goodness depends on minds evaluating it, it doesn't mean objective goodness doesn't exist.

I would argue our relative understanding of goodness varies in ranks and praise, because objective goodness exists. Where it not that objective goodness exist, there would be no ranks to relative goodness, it would all be the same, and all meaningless.

And per the argument I am showing, goodness to be not arbitrary, it must eternal.

So do you believe goodness is arbitrary? That greatness is arbitrary?

(April 9, 2015 at 6:08 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: If objective goodness doesn't exist, then goodness is a delusion, it exist in our minds, but we have no reason to act upon it.

And just because goodness depends on minds evaluating it, it doesn't mean objective goodness doesn't exist.

I would argue our relative understanding of goodness varies in ranks and praise, because objective goodness exists. Where it not that objective goodness exist, there would be no ranks to relative goodness, it would all be the same, and all meaningless.

And per the argument I am showing, goodness to be not arbitrary, it must eternal.

So do you believe goodness is arbitrary? That greatness is arbitrary?

No, objective goodness is delusional.G oodness itself is not a delusion. Goodness is a set of rules a society agrees to follow for their benefit.

The reason objective goodness doesn't exist for the same reason objective beauty doesn't exist. What is beautiful to one isn't necessarily to the other. If there was some objective good, then everyone would be able to agree on what is good. However, you have disagreements all the time for even the simplest of things.

(April 9, 2015 at 6:35 pm)Surgenator Wrote: No, objective goodness is delusional.G oodness itself is not a delusion. Goodness is a set of rules a society agrees to follow for their benefit.

So if a society agree rape is good (for example, the army of the mongols), then it's good, because it benefits them? If a society decide to conquer another nation for goods or spice, it's then good? Also society teaches goodness has an objective goodness, so they have decided it's objective. If a society decides you must worship a pantheon of gods, it's good to do so?

Quote: If there was some objective good, then everyone would be able to agree on what is good.

What's your proof of that? It seems to me to be like an unsupported assertion and misses out on one of the realities of goodness is coming in line with objective goodness as much as possible with our own degree of sight and judgement.

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And as for preaching, I went and read the rules, it said you want to tell others you are going to hell or preach them to like that, then it's not good. If you want to share your ideas, then it's fine.

I'm just sharing my understanding of Salah, and welcome comments on what people think of it. 

Quote:it would be good to understand other people doing these rituals instead of mocking them.

Sheep groveling to a mythical god are not deserving of anything but mockery.  Xtian rituals are just as stupid as your own.  Jewish rituals are just as stupid as your own.  Hindu rituals are just as stupid as your own.

Try thinking for yourselves once.

(April 9, 2015 at 4:26 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: Water has been used a symbol of the nature of God's blessings, being pure, giving growth, and the nature of his light "and his throne was upon the water".

Doesn't it strike you as the perfect example of a man made god for desert dwellers? I mean, that's what it is if you chip away at the spiritual woo. Water is a rare commodity in the region where this god has it's origins. So what?

(April 9, 2015 at 6:51 pm)abaris Wrote: Doesn't it strike you as the perfect example of a man made god for desert dwellers? I mean, that's what it is if you chip away at the spiritual woo. Water is a rare commodity in the region where this god has it's origins. So what?

I think it's to remind about purity and the true nature of blessings. A lot of people don't see the purity from the uncleanness. And higher blessings, and their reality is important. 

Therefore it's been used as a metaphor.

From Misbahal Shariah:

The Commander of the Faithful (Imam Ali) said, 'Love of Allah is a fire which does not pass by anything without burning it up; the light of Allah does not come over something without illuminating it.

 
The skies of Allah do not cause a cloud to appear without it covering whatever is beneath it; the wind of Allah does not blow on something without it moving. Allah's water gives life to everything, and from Allah's earth everything grows. Whoever loves Allah is given every possession and authority.'
 


"
The hadiths say the first thing created was the intellect. Another says "water". Another says "light". 

The reason for these parables, in my opinion, is so we remember a higher reality we are linked, the origin of blessings, the nature of purity.

(April 9, 2015 at 6:43 pm)MysticKnight Wrote:

(April 9, 2015 at 6:35 pm)Surgenator Wrote: No, objective goodness is delusional.G oodness itself is not a delusion. Goodness is a set of rules a society agrees to follow for their benefit.

So if a society agree rape is good (for example, the army of the mongols), then it's good, because it benefits them? If a society decide to conquer another nation for goods or spice, it's then good? Also society teaches goodness has an objective goodness, so they have decided it's objective. If a society decides you must worship a pantheon of gods, it's good to do so?

Please don't assume it is as simple on what a group of people decided. What is good has to be beneficial to the society. So creating a rule for worshipping a non-existent entity doesn't make it good.

When you have two societies interacting, then there is a larger society with two players. So what is good would benefits both of them.

Quote:

Quote: If there was some objective good, then everyone would be able to agree on what is good.

What's your proof of that? It seems to me to be like an unsupported assertion and misses out on one of the realities of goodness is coming in line with objective goodness as much as possible with our own degree of sight and judgement.

Do you see anything wrong with this argument?

1. Beauty to be objective, cannot be arbitrary.
2. Objective beauty exists (assumption).
3. If a Creator can decide/create what is beauty, then beauty would be arbitrary.
4. Therefore a Creator cannot create objective beauty.
5. If a Creator cannot create objective beauty, then nothing can, including evolution, as a Creator can create beauty
6. Therefore objective beauty is eternal.
7. Beauty is not separate from consciousness.
8. Therefore consciousness is eternal.
9. Ultimate beauty is included in definition of objective beauty.
10. Therefore Ultimate beauty exists eternally.

You should. It uses an arbitrary aspects of people's desires and tries to concludes that there is an objective one. Notice, I used your arguments with very minor substitutions (goodness -> beauty). I could of also pick any arbitrary quality. So you got to ask yourself if there is exist an objective quality for any arbitrary quality I come up with. Do you think there is an objective "Surgenatorness"?