(April 15, 2015 at 10:36 am)alpha male Wrote: If there's anyone who's actually interested in research, here's a 10-year longitudinal study:
https://www.psych.utah[...]

Yeah - you lost me there. Go peddle your mor(m)on propaga somewhere else...

(April 15, 2015 at 10:44 am)Homeless Nutter Wrote: Yeah - you lost me there. Go peddle your mor(m)on propaga somewhere else...

Yeah, I guess her Ph. D. from Cornell and her Outstanding Achievement Award from the American Psychological Association Committee on Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, and Transgender Concerns don't count for anything because she now works in Utah.

(April 15, 2015 at 7:23 am)alpha male Wrote: If people were born gay, then we would expect that when one identical twin is gay, the other would be at or near 100% of the time. Studies have been done, and that's not the result. The highest rate found is 52%, and that was with a small sample and a non-representative population. Other studies come up in the 20s, and still others in the single digits. Whatever the actual rate is, it's nowhere near what we would expect if people were born gay. The evidence indicates that there is some amount of predisposition toward homosexuality in some people, but being gay is a choice in the (rear) end.

First let me preface by saying I don't know what causes homosexuality nor do I pretend too. The following are just my thoughts.

People may not be born gay, but they may be born with the pre-disposition to become gay. Identical twins are essentially clones so if homosexuality was strictly genetic....like eye color, you'd expect that if one twin is gay, then the other would also be gay. Alpha male correctly points out, this is not the case.

Is this observation of twins enough to conclude that homosexuality is a choice? I don't believe so. There are plenty of cases where one twin develops a specific disease and the other does not. Just because two people are twins does not mean they are subject to the exact same environmental stimuli and it certainly doesn't mean they will develop in exactly the same way.

(April 15, 2015 at 10:36 am)alpha male Wrote: If there's anyone who's actually interested in research, here's a 10-year longitudinal study:
https://www.psych.utah.edu/people/files/diamond54a5.pdf

Over 10 years, 2/3 of women changed the identity labels they had claimed at the beginning of the study, and 1/3 changed labels 2 or more times. Yet, contrary to the “transitional stage” model, more women adopted bisexual/unlabeled identities than relinquished these identities; few bisexual/unlabeled women ended up identifying as lesbian or heterosexual.

That study is of bi-sexual women only.  What's the point?

If homosexuality was a choice, that would mean that by default heterosexuality is also a choice.
I don't know about the rest of the straight guys here, but I never chose to be straight.
A choice implies that you made a conscious effort to be attracted to girls instead of guys. You looked at and considered both boys and girls, and ended up going with girls. I can't speak for everyone, but I never went through that phase. I basically just went to school  one day I realized, I like girls. I liked that their legs were suddenly 60x longer than their body, and that their shirts seemed a little too tight for them.

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I'm sorry, what were talking about?

(April 15, 2015 at 10:19 am)Chuck Wrote:

(April 15, 2015 at 7:27 am)Homeless Nutter Wrote: Bullshit. Stick to things you can comprehend - like worshiping Jesus' penis. Genetics is clearly not your strong side...

Since identical twins have different fingerprints, obviously fingerprints are choices.

Which supports my contention that the fingerprint of bigotry and ignorance which every vocal christain leaves upon every subject he touches is the result of elective criminal imbecility.   Christians should be given mandatory electric shock de-conversion therapy, so he can be compelled to leave less noxious fingerprints upon anything unfortunate enough to fall under his loathsome touch.

Chuckie is out trolling Christians again.

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(April 15, 2015 at 11:56 am)LostLocke Wrote: If homosexuality was a choice, that would mean that by default heterosexuality is also a choice.
I don't know about the rest of the straight guys here, but I never chose to be straight.
A choice implies that you made a conscious effort to be attracted to girls instead of guys. You looked at and considered both boys and girls, and ended up going with girls. I can't speak for everyone, but I never went through that phase. I basically just went to school  one day I realized, I like girls. I liked that their legs were suddenly 60x longer than their body, and that their shirts seemed a little too tight for them.

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I'm sorry, what were talking about?

The lifestyle is certainly a choice.  

No, I never made a choice either. Just all of a sudden I starting getting these thoughts and urges about females, and none about males. There was never any doubt. Not that it matters, if I happened to have been homosexual or bisexual instead, that would have been cool too.

I don't know if people think it's a choice you make at a certain point and you can't go back, or you can just swap backwards and forwards whenever you want. In the second case, unless the person in question is bisexual, they should be able to see very quickly this isn't true. In the first case... I don't even know how that would work. When do you make the choice, and how does your brain lock that choice in?

Deep down people must know this isn't true, and just use it as a way of justifying their own difficult feelings, either towards themselves or others.

(April 15, 2015 at 10:36 am)alpha male Wrote: If there's anyone who's actually interested in research, here's a 10-year longitudinal study:
https://www.psych.utah.edu/people/files/diamond54a5.pdf

Over 10 years, 2/3 of women changed the identity labels they had claimed at the beginning of the study, and 1/3 changed labels 2 or more times. Yet, contrary to the “transitional stage” model, more women adopted bisexual/unlabeled identities than relinquished these identities; few bisexual/unlabeled women ended up identifying as lesbian or heterosexual.

I really shouldn't have to say this, but the thing you identify as isn't necessarily the thing that you are, and especially with cases of sexual orientation there are outside social pressures, many of them religious, some of them not, that are a factor, beyond strictly accurate reporting. How many times have we heard the story of closeted gays or bi folk, afraid of reactions from society? Particularly from heavily religious families that indoctrinate their young people so heavily; it's hardly surprising that people come into themselves and change their label. Sexuality is a gradient, not a dividing line; you can discover things about yourself that you had never known before as time goes on, that hardly means that it's a choice.

Regarding the twin issue, some studies indicate that a genetic propensity is influenced by other environmental factors both pre-natal and early in life; say it isn't purely genetic, but is set by a series of factors beyond your control at a young age. Is that a problem? That's still not a choice you get to make, you know...

Heywood Wrote:Chuckie is out trolling Christians again.

And Heywood's out dodging again, what a surprise.

(April 15, 2015 at 12:22 pm)robvalue Wrote: No, I never made a choice either. Just all of a sudden I starting getting these thoughts and urges about females, and none about males. There was never any doubt. Not that it matters, if I happened to have been homosexual or bisexual instead, that would have been cool too.

I don't know if people think it's a choice you make at a certain point and you can't go back, or you can just swap backwards and forwards whenever you want. In the second case, unless the person in question is bisexual, they should be able to see very quickly this isn't true. In the first case... I don't even know how that would work. When do you make the choice, and how does your brain lock that choice in?

Deep down people must know this isn't true, and just use it as a way of justifying their own difficult feelings, either towards themselves or others.

Again these are just my thoughts.

In Australia they have this substance they eat called Vegemite.  Basically it is a jelly made from used up brewers yeast.  The rest of the world thinks the substance is pretty vile but the Australians have chosen to like it.  They have cultivated a taste for it.  Could homosexuality be the same?  Could it be something people with a certain pre-disposition cultivate a taste for?  

I think homosexuality can be a choice in very much the same way cultivating a taste for Vegemite is a choice.  I'm sure some Australians always remember liking Vegemite and would claim they don't have a choice but to like it.

(April 13, 2015 at 2:37 pm)Heywood Wrote:

(April 13, 2015 at 2:22 pm)downbeatplumb Wrote: Project much.

The difference is I don't take this as an insult.

I wouldn't be ashamed if I had homosexual ideation as I find nothing wrong in it.

It wasn't meant to be an insult.  It was meant to show that if your argument applies to me....it also applies to you.  But really, that argument you presented, is just silly.

My argument is that often the people who oppose homosexuality the most vigorously turn out to be gay themselves.

This has happened time and time again.


http://www.ranker.com/list/top-10-anti-g...15%2Cd.ZWU