(April 20, 2015 at 11:21 am)alpha male Wrote: But, if someone in the middle part of the bi spectrum chooses to self identify as gay, you consider them gay, rather than bi. That's a choice, and blacks don't have that choice.

But again, I think you're conflating two different choices here; a bi person choosing their label is not choosing who they are attracted to, that is still something beyond their control. Regardless of what label they opt to adopt, what they are attracted to is not a conscious choice (for example, I can't make the choice to be more attracted to men, or to alter what it is about people that I find attractive, even though I am attracted to all sexes) and they are no more in control of that aspects of themselves than, as you say, black people and their skin color.

When the entire argument being referenced here is that homosexuality cannot be immoral because nobody has control over being gay, that's a non-trivial distinction. Bisexual people might have some latitude regarding labeling and choice of partner, but they're still stuck where they are on the spectrum.

(April 20, 2015 at 11:32 am)Esquilax Wrote:

(April 20, 2015 at 11:21 am)alpha male Wrote: But, if someone in the middle part of the bi spectrum chooses to self identify as gay, you consider them gay, rather than bi. That's a choice, and blacks don't have that choice.

But again, I think you're conflating two different choices here; a bi person choosing their label is not choosing who they are attracted to, that is still something beyond their control. Regardless of what label they opt to adopt, what they are attracted to is not a conscious choice (for example, I can't make the choice to be more attracted to men, or to alter what it is about people that I find attractive, even though I am attracted to all sexes) and they are no more in control of that aspects of themselves than, as you say, black people and their skin color.
When the entire argument being referenced here is that homosexuality cannot be immoral because nobody has control over being gay, that's a non-trivial distinction. Bisexual people might have some latitude regarding labeling and choice of partner, but they're still stuck where they are on the spectrum.

With rexbecca I was speaking of a bi continuum. You're speaking of gay and bi as is they're distinct qualities, rather than different points on a continuum. My comments to rexbecca aren't intended for someone with your view. 

ETA: Also, are you a determinist in general?

Well, since Esq and I have similar, if not exactly the same views on this, I'm not sure what you're getting at. Esq answered perfectly.

(April 20, 2015 at 1:11 pm)rexbeccarox Wrote: Well, since Esq and I have similar, if not exactly the same views on this, I'm not sure what you're getting at.  Esq answered perfectly.

One thing I'm getting at is, if sexuality is actually a bi continuum, then what does it mean to be gay? I asked you where the cutoff is, and you declined to answer.

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And if he accepts determinism in general, there's no point to discussion.

Honestly, dude, I don't see a point to discussion with you at all, about anything, anyway. Have a nice day.

What the fuck does it matter who is gay and who is not? We're talking about equal rights for all. If two straight men want to marry each other, they should be allowed to.

If you want to do a scientific study on a person's sexuality before deciding whether or not to bake them a cake, you need taking round the back and fibre wiring.

It doesn't matter where the line is. People who are bisexual didn't choose to be attracted to both sexes anymore than people who identify as completely gay or completely straight chose their attractions. Deciding where the line is for someone to be completely straight or completely homosexual is fucking pointless, except to people who need to think in black and white terms in order to be bigots. I'm pretty sure everyone else here would happily accept that anyone who identifies as gay considers themselves as such because they really don't feel sexual attraction towards people of the opposite sex, or have only in extremely rare circumstances. It's only straight people who seem to get their shit all fucked up if they have one of those rare circumstances, like they can't consider themselves straight. Get some fucking nuance.

(April 20, 2015 at 2:04 pm)thesummerqueen Wrote: It doesn't matter where the line is. People who are bisexual didn't choose to be attracted to both sexes anymore than people who identify as completely gay or completely straight chose their attractions. Deciding where the line is for someone to be completely straight or completely homosexual is fucking pointless, except to people who need to think in black and white terms in order to be bigots. I'm pretty sure everyone else here would happily accept that anyone who identifies as gay considers themselves as such because they really don't feel sexual attraction towards people of the opposite sex, or have only in extremely rare circumstances. It's only straight people who seem to get their shit all fucked up if they have one of those rare circumstances, like they can't consider themselves straight. Get some fucking nuance.

The black and white hardline little boxes of comfortable certainty seem to be a thread with theists and bigots.

It's a human thing - we want to label stuff, because that's how our brains work. The problem comes when we 1) refuse to accept that people can be multiple labels and only see them as one or two and 2) decide that we know exactly what it means to be that label...especially when we aren't that label ourselves.

I'm going to make #getsomefuckingnuance my new hashtag.

(April 20, 2015 at 12:49 pm)alpha male Wrote: With rexbecca I was speaking of a bi continuum. You're speaking of gay and bi as is they're distinct qualities, rather than different points on a continuum. My comments to rexbecca aren't intended for someone with your view. 

ETA: Also, are you a determinist in general?

Continuums have end points, and gay would be one when we're discussing sexual orientation. Now, there's going to be some latitude there, it's going to be subjective depending on the person doing the self identification, but the point I'm trying to make is that wherever you fall on the spectrum, you don't have some conscious choice to slide up or down it. Your choice of identification is subjective, but that's not the same thing as choosing who you're attracted to.

And no, I'm not a determinist.