I wonder how that "prison sentence" statistic would look if we broke it down further (e.g. black males, white males, etc.)?

(April 20, 2015 at 3:10 pm)Godslayer Wrote: ^ Exactly, these feminists can't understand that Egalitarianism is the umbrella term for feminism and men's rights and trans-rights, not the other way around.

Exactly.  These people don't want equal rights for all, they only care about equality for their pet groups.  Where their pet  groups have more rights than others they don't like, they're completely silent.  The fact is, women make up 58% of university graduates today, but they're only screaming about more money to send more women to school.  They don't want equality.  They want revenge.  They're also not talking about all of the advantages they have over men.  They think they deserve that.  They don't mention it when women get lighter sentences for the exact same crimes.  They don't say a word when women get better access to child custody and support payments.  They never campaign to have some of that massive pile of money that goes to breast cancer research go to, say, prostate cancer research.  It's not even in their rhetoric, they don't care.  That's why they're trying to steal the thunder from egalitarianism because if anyone actually looked at how they operate in the real world, it becomes painfully clear that they don't give a damn about equality for all, they only care about rights for their in-group.

(April 20, 2015 at 4:57 pm)Dystopia Wrote: Do you ever wonder why that happens? As a law student I noticed lawyers often ask for mercy to the judge saying that their client is a woman and poses no danger. Men are given harsher sentences simply because they are considered strong and hence dangerous. Women are given less time because they are considered too weak to be dangerous enough and no one believes they will survive in prison. Have you ever wondered if gender roles can give you upsides but impact you negatively at the same time? The though side of being considered "Strong, assertive and masculine" is that you are also considered more dangerous than people with feminine characteristics who are seen as "passive, submissive and docile".

I agree with you, and I think the fact that men are considered more dangerous is systemic and institutionalized inequality. I don't agree that women should be given less time because they will not survive in prison; prisons exist which are women only and women survive in them fine. Also, prison sentences shouldn't be about whether a person can survive or not in prison; prisons should be created such that any person who is incarcerated there is both punished and protected from harm.

Quote:False dichotomy. It can perfectly be mostly about women but also take some time to focus on men, gays, transsexuals (as it does nowadays). You don't dictate that it's either one extreme or the other. It's like saying that you are either a fundie Christian or you are an atheist. You can be something in between.

I disagree that it's a false dichotomy. I never said that you had to focus on men / gays / transsexuals equally to women, but if a feminist stands for equality for all, they should at least focus on those groups some of the time. The reason a lot of feminists get flack and opposition is because they claim that feminism is about equal rights, but then do nothing for men's rights, and in some cases deny outright that there are social inequalities which men face.

If you want to call yourself a feminist and say it's about ridding inequalities for everyone, but then you only focus on inequalities which affect women, then to me, that appears very one sided.

(April 20, 2015 at 3:21 pm)francismjenkins Wrote: It's sort of like how people misunderstand the term black lives matter. It's not as if its creators were saying only black lives matter, they were saying black lives "also" matter (in a country where black lives have traditionally mattered "less" than white lives). Same with feminism. I've had the pleasure of working with many feminists, and by far the majority view in the circles I've encountered is a very robust view of freedom. In other words, freedom for everyone, "including" women (get it)? This hostility towards feminism is reactionary (at best). 

But *ALL* lives matter, but the second anyone points that out, the feminists scream racism.  It isn't just black lives that matter, it isn't just female lives that matter, it isn't just gay lives that matter, it's ALL lives.  Most people are on board with egalitarianism, it's just the online vocal feminists who are screaming and whining at anyone who doesn't put *THEIR* lives at the top of the pile.

Prisons are evil, period. No one should be put in a cage, and any society whose incentives drive people to do things that endanger the society as a whole (requiring incarceration), is a shitty society. Thus, the whole world sucks

"beware [of] those in whom the urge to punish is strong" Nietzsche

(April 20, 2015 at 5:41 pm)francismjenkins Wrote: I wonder how that "prison sentence" statistic would look if we broke it down further (e.g. black males, white males, etc.)?

I know exactly how it would look; non-white men get longer sentences for the same crimes than white men. I accept that statistic, and I want to see that inequality addressed as well, because I'm an egalitarian.

But that statistic doesn't nullify my one about prison sentences of men vs women; it just demonstrates that inequality isn't as black and white as some feminists would like it to be. I'd wager than most people experience some form of inequality in their lives; none of it is good.

(April 20, 2015 at 6:26 pm)Cephus Wrote:

(April 20, 2015 at 3:21 pm)francismjenkins Wrote: It's sort of like how people misunderstand the term black lives matter. It's not as if its creators were saying only black lives matter, they were saying black lives "also" matter (in a country where black lives have traditionally mattered "less" than white lives). Same with feminism. I've had the pleasure of working with many feminists, and by far the majority view in the circles I've encountered is a very robust view of freedom. In other words, freedom for everyone, "including" women (get it)? This hostility towards feminism is reactionary (at best). 

But *ALL* lives matter, but the second anyone points that out, the feminists scream racism.  It isn't just black lives that matter, it isn't just female lives that matter, it isn't just gay lives that matter, it's ALL lives.  Most people are on board with egalitarianism, it's just the online vocal feminists who are screaming and whining at anyone who doesn't put *THEIR* lives at the top of the pile.

It's like you didn't read anything I said, yet for whatever reason, you decided to respond to it?

(April 20, 2015 at 6:32 pm)francismjenkins Wrote: It's like you didn't read anything I said, yet for whatever reason, you decided to respond to it?

Welcome to heated arguments on the Internet, lol.

(April 20, 2015 at 6:29 pm)Tiberius Wrote:

(April 20, 2015 at 5:41 pm)francismjenkins Wrote: I wonder how that "prison sentence" statistic would look if we broke it down further (e.g. black males, white males, etc.)?

I know exactly how it would look; non-white men get longer sentences for the same crimes than white men. I accept that statistic, and I want to see that inequality addressed as well, because I'm an egalitarian.

But that statistic doesn't nullify my one about prison sentences of men vs women; it just demonstrates that inequality isn't as black and white as some feminists would like it to be. I'd wager than most people experience some form of inequality in their lives; none of it is good.

No it doesn't nullify it ... and men should get shorter prison sentences. In fact, we should imprison people much less, but we're a fucking inbred retributive society, with vile red necks running around everywhere, so what do you expect? 

(April 20, 2015 at 6:34 pm)francismjenkins Wrote: No it doesn't nullify it ... and men should get shorter prison sentences. In fact, we should imprison people much less, but we're a fucking inbred retributive society, with vile red necks running around everywhere, so what do you expect? 

I don't think you can justify such blanket statements. There are certainly some crimes which we shouldn't jail people for (i.e. victimless / non-violent drug crimes), but I'm fine with murderers, rapists, child molesters, etc. getting long sentences for their crimes.